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  1. #1

    Default Do You Need Probably Cause to Check Speed

    My question involves a speeding ticket from the State of: Washington

    On the copy of the ticket, the officer does not indicate whether I was going faster than other moving traffic, appear to be going faster than the posted speed limit, or any other reasons he thought I was going too fast.

    All it says is "no other vehicle within approx 10 blocks of suspect. Vehicle at time of radar lock in 51."

    My question is whether a radar check of a vehicle is a "search" and whether the officer needs some kind of probable cause to "search" my vehicle's speed.
    If no probable cause, is this an unreasonable search under the 4th Amendment and thus the evidence of my speed is inadmissable?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Do You Need Probably Cause to Check Speed

    good luck with that, but i highly doubt it will get you anywhere......

    do you have your discovery? sounds like it, if so put it up here!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Do You Need Probably Cause to Check Speed

    Quote Quoting monsterkitty
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    My question is whether a radar check of a vehicle is a "search" and whether the officer needs some kind of probable cause to "search" my vehicle's speed.
    No, it is not a search - not even close. It is an observation and not intrusive. He can also run your license plate, and even your name if he knows it, without reasonable suspicion to believe you have committed a crime.
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    Default Re: Do You Need Probably Cause to Check Speed

    Quote Quoting monsterkitty
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    My question is whether a radar check of a vehicle is a "search" and whether the officer needs some kind of probable cause to "search" my vehicle's speed.
    If no probable cause, is this an unreasonable search under the 4th Amendment and thus the evidence of my speed is inadmissable?
    Uh, not even close.

    hopefully you have an alternate defense because that one will get you absolutely nowhere.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Do You Need Probably Cause to Check Speed

    Quote Quoting monsterkitty
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    My question is whether a radar check of a vehicle is a "search" and whether the officer needs some kind of probable cause to "search" my vehicle's speed.
    If no probable cause, is this an unreasonable search under the 4th Amendment and thus the evidence of my speed is inadmissable?
    I must say that is a novel Constitutional approach, I never heard that before, but as stated, it is not arguable and has no weight.

    If it is legal for a "bear in the air" to clock you, it is legal for a ground source to do so.

    In New York v. Class, even when an officer opened the door himself to check the VIN, it was ruled NOT a search, and that was more intrusive than a visual observation from outside the vehicle.

    As Carl pointed out about running a LP, since Class, the courts expanded it to include such.

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    Default Re: Do You Need Probably Cause to Check Speed

    now, while we are all saying no way, this does bring to mind the case in Oregon that eventually ruled the use of an IR camera to detect heat emissions from a home was a 4th amend violation

    On June 11, 2001, an atypically divided Court held 5-4 that thermal imaging surveillance is a search for 4th Amendment purposes, and presumptively unreasonable without a warrant.
    http://otd.oyez.org/cases/4th-amendm...llo-danny-v-us

    so, why is the use of radar so different?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Do You Need Probably Cause to Check Speed

    Quote Quoting jk
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    now, while we are all saying no way, this does bring to mind the case in Oregon that eventually ruled the use of an IR camera to detect heat emissions from a home was a 4th amend violation
    Because it checked beyond things available to the naked eye or unaided observation. It was intrusive. Speed is not. I can SEE the speed of your car. And, the way speed is determined is that you observe the speed and confirm it with the use of the radar. It does not penetrate the surface of the vehicle to see what might be inside, or find out anything that cannot be observed by the naked eye.
    **********
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    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Do You Need Probably Cause to Check Speed

    I am familiar with that case. When deciding what is and is not a search, as cited in Kyllo, the seminal case KATZ is analyzed.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...9_0347_ZS.html

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Do You Need Probably Cause to Check Speed

    I see a difference though as in Katz, there was an intrusion upon the person and speech itself is considered to be private unless the speaker fails to take reasonable care to conceal.

    in Kyllo, there was no invasion of the person and what was used was simply the heat emanating from the house. Now, while I would not find that alone as PC to issue a warrant, it could surely be used along with other evidence to support a warrant.

    that would actually be less invasive than using a record of electrical usage as PC to support a warrant, which, unless I am way off the mark, has been done.

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    Because it checked beyond things available to the naked eye or unaided observation. It was intrusive. Speed is not. I can SEE the speed of your car. And, the way speed is determined is that you observe the speed and confirm it with the use of the radar. It does not penetrate the surface of the vehicle to see what might be inside, or find out anything that cannot be observed by the naked eye.
    but that was the arguing point. Common speed with other vehicles and no claim of the officer determining speed without the use of electronic means.

    While you claim an officer is trained to determine speed, he in fact cannot determine speed. He does not have the ability to actual measure the speed therefor, he is merely estimating or making a reasonable guess based on other observed factors.

    the IR cameras do not penetrate anything, In fact, just the opposite, they simply measure what has penetrated the building and escaped into the public realm.

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    Default Re: Do You Need Probably Cause to Check Speed

    Quote Quoting jk
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    but that was the arguing point. Common speed with other vehicles and no claim of the officer determining speed without the use of electronic means.

    the IR cameras do not penetrate anything, In fact, just the opposite, they simply measure what has penetrated the building and escaped into the public realm.
    First, the radar detects nothing that cannot be seen by the naked eye. It is not intrusive.

    Second, while everyone says they were caught on radar, the testimony is (or should be) that the officer observed the speed and then affirmed it through the use of the radar.

    It is less intrusive than using the activation of a store alarm to detain possible shoplifters or metal detectors to detain and search people who set those devices off - and those devices detect things that could be hidden on the person. The key there is the person is in a place where they have a diminished expectation of privacy. One does NOT have such an expectation on the roadway, either.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

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