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  1. #1

    Default Why Degrees of Murder

    My question involves criminal law for the state of: New Jersey


    As I understand, the state of New Jersey is one of a few states that does not have degrees of murder.

    My question is:
    What are the reasons/justifications for why some states decided to divide murders into degrees?

    For me personally, the murder is the same and the end result is the same, so to say one deserves a stricter sentence than the other sounds absurd to me — unless we're talking about accidents (which would fall under manslaughters rather than murders).

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    Default Re: Why Degrees of Murder

    Because some jurisdictions make the distinction between planned and orchestrated crime and an "impulse" crime of passion or an accident.

    You are correct, the outcome is the same.

    The levels are an attempt at providing true justice.

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    Default Re: Why Degrees of Murder

    Quote Quoting anberlin32
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    My question involves criminal law for the state of: New Jersey


    As I understand, the state of New Jersey is one of a few states that does not have degrees of murder.

    My question is:
    What are the reasons/justifications for why some states decided to divide murders into degrees?

    For me personally, the murder is the same and the end result is the same, so to say one deserves a stricter sentence than the other sounds absurd to me — unless we're talking about accidents (which would fall under manslaughters rather than murders).
    What if it's self-defense? You think a person who kill somebody while protecting their own life deserves to be incarcerated for the same amount of time as a cold-blooded killer? Are you that stupid?

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    Default Re: Why Degrees of Murder

    Most states differentiate between the crime-of-passion type murders and the murders that are planned and carried out.

    Just like there's differentiation between degrees of manslaughter, mostly reckless or negligent.

    Reckless is you were doing something stupid and caused a death, negligent is when you unreasonably caused a death.

    The definitions run quite a bit more complicated than that, but that's sorta the condensed version.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Why Degrees of Murder

    Quote Quoting blueeagle
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    What if it's self-defense? You think a person who kill somebody while protecting their own life deserves to be incarcerated for the same amount of time as a cold-blooded killer? Are you that stupid?
    Whoa, what's with the hurling of insults?

    In any event, self-defense is irrelevant to the question of degrees of murder since self-defense is a non-criminal homicide so I might be in a better position to ask your last question. I'm talking about the purpose in creating these degrees since in New Jersey they are non-existent. You can hurl the stupid tag at that state all you want, but clearly there are large bodies of people that do not support that approach to the law of homicide. Murder is murder in New Jersey; there is no seperate charge for "premeditated murder" as it all falls under 2C:11-3.

    Quote Quoting souperdave
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    Most states differentiate between the crime-of-passion type murders and the murders that are planned and carried out.
    Well, I understand that most states draw those distinctions, but I don't see the distincion in the underlying offense. Mitigating circumstances can be argued in court, but the charge should be the same for your examples in my opinion. I was wondering more about the reasons they give for said differentiations.

    Quote Quoting cyjeff
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    The levels are an attempt at providing true justice.
    How so? What would, say, New Jersey be missing out on that California is not?

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    Default Re: Why Degrees of Murder

    Quote Quoting anberlin32
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    Whoa, what's with the hurling of insults?

    In any event, self-defense is irrelevant to the question of degrees of murder since self-defense is a non-criminal homicide so I might be in a better position to ask your last question. I'm talking about the purpose in creating these degrees since in New Jersey they are non-existent. You can hurl the stupid tag at that state all you want, but clearly there are large bodies of people that do not support that approach to the law of homicide. Murder is murder in New Jersey; there is no seperate charge for "premeditated murder" as it all falls under 2C:11-3.
    Unfortunately, the opinion of large bodies of people isn't relevant to the conversation; as it turns out throughout history, large bodies of people can be wrong. Often.

    A more appropriate context isn't to lay claim that a large body of people think a certain way, but to look at the actual relevant issue: why do they think this way? Is it because they have a superior or inferior system of morality, equity or justice? Do they simply like to paint with too broad a brush?

    Well, I understand that most states draw those distinctions, but I don't see the distincion in the underlying offense. Mitigating circumstances can be argued in court, but the charge should be the same for your examples in my opinion. I was wondering more about the reasons they give for said differentiations.
    So, you see no distinction based upon the motivating factors for an event to such an extent that the outcome is the deciding factor? After all, a person who walks in and sees a man walking away with blood on his hands having just beaten to death some poor father's young daughter and then in a so-called fit of rage loses control and beats the man to death in return is as equally indebted to society for transgressing our conventions as a man who sits in his home drawing up plans as to exact upon the child in question the most painful, brutal method of death he can contrive?

    I think not. The man who sits at home contemplating the best way he can imagine to murder a small child has shown a moral deficit orders of magnitude high and above of that of a man who having just watched his brutally beaten child take her last breaths whose moral center is in turn overcome by the profound trauma of that event and as a direct consequence kills someone. One of these men I'd be proud to call my neighbor, friend and brother. The other can die in a fire for all I care. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine which one s/he'd rather have as a neighbor or friend.

    Anyway, the chief reason that we grade murders is the same reason that we grade anything else in life: life isn't a black and white situation where only the outcome is important. For each action undertaken there is some underlying motivation; this is where the grading bit comes in. A person who in response to a situation lacks the capacity to quell his rage and does violence is less morally culpable than a person who intentionally plans out and does the same act.

    Consider any other topic of your choice. Is a person who tells someone something which is false necessarily a liar? Or is it that they simply lacked the capacity at the moment to overcome their ignorance and went with what they "knew" to be so? In that case, we generally don't think of those people as liars for good reason: they aren't lying. Though the outcome is the same as if they'd planned out this falsity and foisted it upon someone else too ignorant to know better, we grade it in the "oops" category instead of the "con" category. Why should murder be considered so unique that to examine one's underlying motivation(s) becomes irrelevant?

    How so? What would, say, New Jersey be missing out on that California is not?
    That there are shades of culpability recognized for every other human action. Indeed, I'm not seeing another law in which only the outcome of the act is examined, ignoring altogether the degree to which one is morally culpable. If we extend the logic that murder is murder is murder, then there should be no insanity defense available to the citizens of New Jersey. After all, what does it matter how morally culpable a mentally ill person actually is, whether or not they can understand the nature and quality of their actions when the real question is did they take another person's life in contrivance to the established law? Why does it matter when at the end of the day the victim will remain equally dead?

    Of course, you're going to argue that insanity is a defense, which I grant. However, that won't do to answer the question because such a claim is an affirmative defense where one (usually through counsel) attempts to make plain to a jury that a murder did actually happen, but that it should be excused because of ____. It isn't saying that the murder didn't happen and the person didn't do it; only that the murder happened and the accused shouldn't be punished for it because there's a lack of moral culpability based on their mental faculties.

    Why should emotions remain so unique that a person who kills another upon seeing that person finish killing his child is as equally morally culpable for his actions as the person murdering the child? It shouldn't be that way, and they aren't that unique.

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    Default Re: Why Degrees of Murder

    Quote Quoting anberlin32
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    My question involves criminal law for the state of: New Jersey


    As I understand, the state of New Jersey is one of a few states that does not have degrees of murder.

    My question is:
    What are the reasons/justifications for why some states decided to divide murders into degrees?
    Did you read the murder statute? All may be a 1st degree crime, but sentencing is different based on the elements. I have no problem with an enhanced penalty for a person who murders a child, as in NJ, under 14. I also have no problem with an enhanced penalty for a person who kills a police officer.

    For me personally, the murder is the same and the end result is the same, so to say one deserves a stricter sentence than the other sounds absurd to me — unless we're talking about accidents (which would fall under manslaughters rather than murders).
    Accidents?? Did you read the MS chapters?

    Personally murder may be murder to you, and there is no argument here if you wish to believe that, as there is nothing wrong with it.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Why Degrees of Murder

    Quote Quoting ashman165
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    So, you see no distinction based upon the motivating factors for an event to such an extent that the outcome is the deciding factor?
    I thought I said the following...

    (observe in bold)
    Quote Quoting anberlin32
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    Mitigating circumstances can be argued in court, but the charge should be the same for your examples in my opinion.
    Hence what BOR wrote...

    Quote Quoting BOR
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    Did you read the murder statute? All may be a 1st degree crime, but sentencing is different based on the elements. I have no problem with an enhanced penalty for a person who murders a child, as in NJ, under 14. I also have no problem with an enhanced penalty for a person who kills a police officer.
    Exactly! That's what I said earlier and so far no one has been able to tell me why this system (which DOES take into account shades of gray like you just pointed out BOR) would be inferior to that of degrees.

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    Default Re: Why Degrees of Murder

    Quote Quoting anberlin32
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    Exactly! That's what I said earlier and so far no one has been able to tell me why this system (which DOES take into account shades of gray like you just pointed out BOR) would be inferior to that of degrees.
    The point is each state is a "seperate sovereign" and can pass any homicide law they want as long as it does not conflict with the Federal constitution, and or here, the NJ SC. Some states laws/rules of criminal procedure are similar in nature to other states, some are not.


    To find any possible "legislative intent" of such passage may take some law library research for NJ.

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    Default Re: Why Degrees of Murder

    Quote Quoting anberlin32
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    I thought I said the following...

    (observe in bold)


    Hence what BOR wrote...


    Exactly! That's what I said earlier and so far no one has been able to tell me why this system (which DOES take into account shades of gray like you just pointed out BOR) would be inferior to that of degrees.
    You also said, "Murder is murder in New Jersey; there is no seperate [sic] charge for "premeditated murder" as it all falls under 2C:11-3." The charge needn't be separate for the conviction to be different in practical terms. You're arguing that in New Jersey all murders are equal, which it would seem you're also arguing isn't the case.

    I'm not sure which argument of yours to follow as one negates the other. It's either the case that all murder is equivalent, thus no variance in any sentencing should come up, or that murders aren't equal. Pick your poison, but in even in New Jersey they don't consider all murder to be precisely equal, despite your assertion that, "Murder is murder in New Jersey; there is no seperate [sic] charge for "premeditated murder" as it all falls under 2C:11-3."

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