Results 1 to 10 of 11

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3

    Default Police on Private Property

    My question involves police conduct in the State of: Arkansas

    The other night my friend had a party at this house. I was standing outside (within 5 feet) the front door which directly faced the street talking to a friend. He had a beer in his hands as he was talking (he is 21) and neither of us were being over loud. We saw three police officers walking down the street and when they saw us they were directly in front of the house. The three of them then turned and came up to us.

    Note: There was a music. It was loud enough to be heard from outside.

    They immediately questioned my friend if he was 21 and when he procured his ID they then demanded to see the owner of the house. He opened the door and quickly went inside, but when he tried to close the door one of the officers placed her foot in the door and then threw it open. She did not then enter the house, but stood right on the doorstep. When my friend came outside to talk to her, he asked if he could shut the door and the officer said no because then she would be unable to see what is going on inside the house.

    The rest of the story is superfluous, but they just told him to make sure everyone at the party was 21 and to be respectful of his neighbors. This coming after one of the officers admitted no noise violation had occurred because the music could not be heard outside of 100ft.

    My friend has had problems with police officers walking around his house before, with the last time two other people sitting in the back yard talking (not visible from the street). They were startled when police officers emerged from the darkness.

    Sorry for the length, questions: 1. I realize I am ignorant of the laws but do Police need some type of probable cause to walk around his house, or come up to the door, or demand to speak to the owner? (I can understand if the beer or music was PC enough). 2. Can they actually require the door to stay open the entire time? I understand the logic behind it, but found it odd.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    20,594

    Default Re: Police on Private Property

    Quote Quoting Majblitz
    View Post
    I realize I am ignorant of the laws but do Police need some type of probable cause to walk around his house, or come up to the door, or demand to speak to the owner?
    Nope. If John Q. Citizen can walk up to the door, so can the cops. And they can ask to speak to anyone they want. In this case, IK suspct they were investigating the noise and the possibility that minors might be drinking.

    Can they actually require the door to stay open the entire time? I understand the logic behind it, but found it odd.
    Maybe. It depends on why. I might want it open so that I can see i a threat is developing ... whether I could make an arrest for someone closing it would depend on the totality of the circumstances.

    - Carl

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: Police on Private Property

    Ok. That makes sense and it was along the lines of what I was thinking. A few follow ups though. Are there any guidelines for investigating noise? The noise level was admitted by one of them as not having broken any regulations, but they it was loud enough that they thought it could disturb the neighbors.

    As far as investigating minors drinking, so can they just go up to any house and ask for the the ids of everyone who is drinking inside the premises? If they weren't investigating the noise, then surely one male with a beer in his hand who is 21 isn't enough to search everyone inside the house... but I could be wrong.

    The Police officer merely said the door had to stay open so she could see inside. I also understand their need to be careful and mindful of their surroundings, how are they to know if they cannot see? Various things I have looked at have mentioned stepping outside (shutting the door behind you) and talking to police. None of them are citing any laws, but it doesn't sit right with me unless they have a reason for suspecting trouble from within.

    I just want to make it clear that I am not trying to find out where these officers messed up and go screaming about misuse of power. In that situation, I was so confused about what they could and couldn't do under law. I am merely attempting to understand.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    20,594

    Default Re: Police on Private Property

    Quote Quoting Majblitz
    View Post
    Are there any guidelines for investigating noise?
    Well, any such investigation would be subject to the law and to agency policy. In general, no, there is not some pre-formatted policy or law that says an officer must follow particular steps when investigating a noice complaint.

    The noise level was admitted by one of them as not having broken any regulations, but they it was loud enough that they thought it could disturb the neighbors.
    The latter is generally sufficient under the law.

    Plus, the police can walk to the door and talk to anyone they want. if John Q. Public can do it, so can the cops.

    As far as investigating minors drinking, so can they just go up to any house and ask for the the ids of everyone who is drinking inside the premises?
    They can ASK, but they might not be able to compel ID. It depends on the circumstances and whether any crime can be articulated.

    The Police officer merely said the door had to stay open so she could see inside. I also understand their need to be careful and mindful of their surroundings, how are they to know if they cannot see?
    I like to see what's going on inside as well. But, unless I can articulate an officer safety reason, I would probably lose any evidence I observed if I forced someone to keep the door open against their will. Just to be able to see inside is, by itself, not likely to be legal. Absent a safety issue, unless I have the lawful authority to enter or search, I doubt I can legally force the owner to keep the door open.


    - Carl

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,835

    Default Re: Police on Private Property

    The Police officer merely said the door had to stay open so she could see inside. I also understand their need to be careful and mindful of their surroundings, how are they to know if they cannot see?

    I like to see what's going on inside as well. But, unless I can articulate an officer safety reason, I would probably lose any evidence I observed if I forced someone to keep the door open against their will. Just to be able to see inside is, by itself, not likely to be legal. Absent a safety issue, unless I have the lawful authority to enter or search, I doubt I can legally force the owner to keep the door open.


    - Carl
    Carl, I was reading a case sometime ago, and darn I did not bookmark it, but the facts were very similar.

    It was a loud music case I think also. The officer went to the door, and the person inside just cracked it open and would not let him in, when the officer tried to open it just a little the man pushed it back, and I think the officer put his foot in. The reasoning was he said he was concerned he had a weapon behind the door.

    After a few seconds of a tussle the officer burst in and there was contraband in plain view, and he was charged with it.

    IF I remember right, the court permitted it's admission.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    20,594

    Default Re: Police on Private Property

    Sounds like the court agreed with the officer safety exception. I, too, do not like people concealed behind the door for just that reason.

    - Carl

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,835

    Default Re: Police on Private Property

    Quote Quoting BOR
    View Post
    Carl, I was reading a case sometime ago, and darn I did not bookmark it, but the facts were very similar.

    It was a loud music case I think also. The officer went to the door, and the person inside just cracked it open and would not let him in, when the officer tried to open it just a little the man pushed it back, and I think the officer put his foot in. The reasoning was he said he was concerned he had a weapon behind the door.

    After a few seconds of a tussle the officer burst in and there was contraband in plain view, and he was charged with it.

    IF I remember right, the court permitted it's admission.

    This is the case, but I was wrong, the Appeals court vacated the District court ruling.

    page 7:

    A.
    The governments first argument, that the officers requiring
    Mowatt to open his door so that they could see him did not constitute
    a search, is easily resolved. It is well established that a search occurs
    for Fourth Amendment purposes "when officers gain visual or physi-
    cal access to a . . . room after an occupant opens the door not volun-
    tarily, but in response to a demand under color of authority." United
    States v. Conner, 127 F.3d 663, 666 (8th Cir. 1997). Under such cir-
    cumstances, the fact that "the officers gained visual access to the inte-
    rior of a dwelling without physically entering it is irrelevant to the
    question [of] whether a search was effected." United States v. Win-
    sor, 846 F.2d 1569, 1572 (9th Cir. 1988) (en banc).


    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/...th/064886p.pdf

    Here they demanded he open the door. Par. 3 states about how the officers felt he had a weapon.

    The officer tried to grab for the person's shoulder when he would not open the door, the person pushed the officer away and then they busted in.

    The court ruled the exigent circumstances for entry did not exists and the Motion to supress that was denied by the District court, was reversed here.

    Here is the Connor case cited above:

    Other circuits agree:

    par. 10:

    The district court, however, correctly determined that an unconstitutional search occurs when officers gain visual or physical access to a motel room after an occupant opens the door not voluntarily, but in response to a demand under color of authority. See United States v. Jerez, 108 F.3d 684, 692 (7th Cir.1997); United States v. Tovar-Rico, 61 F.3d 1529, 1535-36 (11th Cir.1995); United States v. Winsor, 846 F.2d 1569, 1572 (9th Cir.1988) (en banc). Further, we find no error in the district court's determination that, under the totality of circumstances, Tilton did not voluntarily consent to the officers' entry into the motel room.2 Thus, the police officers' action constituted an unconstitutional intrusion into that zone of privacy.3

    http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/...3.97-1085.html

    Majblitz, Arkansas is in the 8th Circuit, so Connor is applicable. The police requiring you to keep open the door so they can see in IS a search under the 4th AM.

    They could NOT have forced you to keep it open, IMO.

    1. Sponsored Links
       

Similar Threads

  1. Police Conduct: Police on Private Property
    By hightower in forum Police Investigations
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-14-2010, 02:39 PM
  2. Police Ticket on Private Property
    By jacob4711 in forum Police Investigations
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-13-2008, 12:08 PM
  3. Police Search on Private Property
    By Sinsemilio in forum Police Investigations
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-06-2007, 08:37 PM
  4. Police Jurisdiction on Private Property
    By Keydo in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01-25-2007, 11:57 AM
  5. Speeding Tickets: Police Radar on Private Property
    By teleman in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-17-2006, 12:57 PM
 
 
Sponsored Links

Legal Help, Information and Resources