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  1. #1
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    Default Speeding Ticket in National Park

    My question involves a speeding ticket from the State of: Washington / Olympic National Park

    I received a speeding ticket last weekend for doing 56 in a 35 on Highway 101 in the Olympic National Park (Washington State). I passed a Park Ranger traveling in the opposite direction that supposedly caught me on RADAR and radioed ahead to another Ranger traveling in the same direction as I, who pulled off to the side of the road and waited for me to pass. He then pulled onto the road behind me and pulled me over and subsequently issued me a speeding ticket. I never spoke with the Ranger who witnessed me on RADAR.

    To the best of my memory, I recall passing the oncoming Ranger in the 45 mph zone coming down the hill and shortly after that I entered the 35 mph zone. When telling the Ranger that issued the ticket I passed the other Ranger in a 45 mph zone, he insisted I was in the 35 zone doing 56 mph. I asked what mile marker I was seen at and he told me mm 230 which he wrote on the ticket. I hesitated on whether to go back and look for myself but opted to move on as we were heading out to the coast and did not want to waste any more time the Rangers had already done.

    I have looked on Google maps street viewer and noticed mile marker 230 sits at the apex of a curve that goes around a hill side with a lake on the other side. I know a thing or two about Radar, as I'm an electronic tech with an FCC license to work Radar equipment. So I know "IF" I was detected there it would of only been a very narrow window of time the Ranger would of got a good reading. My concern is, how long do they have to "track" me to have a legal reading?

    I am planning on contesting the ticket on the defense that I was in the 45 mph zone when they claimed I was in the 35 mph area and that the Rangers were creating a speed trap at the entrance to the park by driving in opposite directions and radioing to each other in order to exploit drivers picking up speed coming down the hill.

    And my secondary defense that they were unable to get a valid reading on me due to the blind curve and lack of time and distance to track me.

    Anybody have any thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Speeding Ticket in National Park

    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    I have looked on Google maps street viewer and noticed mile marker 230 sits at the apex of a curve that goes around a hill side with a lake on the other side. I know a thing or two about Radar, as I'm an electronic tech with an FCC license to work Radar equipment. So I know "IF" I was detected there it would of only been a very narrow window of time the Ranger would of got a good reading. My concern is, how long do they have to "track" me to have a legal reading?

    I wouldn't put TOO much stock in this. "At or about" does not mean "precisely" when it comes to locations. No judge expects an officer to pull out a tape measure and measure the absolute distance to the nearest mile post. Besides, any "electronic tech with an FCC license to work Radar equipment" should know that a law enforcement radar takes about 3-tenths of a second to "clock" a target. At 56 MPH, that means your car only moved about 25 feet -- entirely plausible even after coming around a corner.

    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    I am planning on contesting the ticket on the defense that I was in the 45 mph zone when they claimed I was in the 35 mph area and that the Rangers were creating a speed trap at the entrance to the park by driving in opposite directions and radioing to each other in order to exploit drivers picking up speed coming down the hill.

    Since you're in WA, the state definition of a "speed trap" is in effect. You can find it in RCW 46.61.470. As you can see, it has NOTHING to do with your situation.


    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    And my secondary defense that they were unable to get a valid reading on me due to the blind curve and lack of time and distance to track me.

    Hmmm. And you don't think that 3/10ths of a second is fast enough? And that ONLY applies if the judge accepts your argument that the infraction occurred "precisely" at the mile marker, and not a quarter-mile away.

    Personally, I'd concentrate on the fact that there were TWO officers -- one to clock you and one to pull you over. Did the one who clocked you EVER lose sight of you before you were pulled over? If so, how can the officer who pulled you over be sure it was the same car? Were there other cars on the road (check the officer's statement to see if they indicated the traffic conditions). Or is your car so distinctive that it could not have been mistaken (you don't drive a Lamborghini, do you?)

    Anyway, you should probably submit a discovery request to get the officers' statements. Then you should have a better idea of the case against you.

    Also, I'm guessing that this is federal court, not state, right?

    Barry

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Speeding Ticket in National Park

    I fully understand that RADAR will clock your speed instantaneously, I was just wondering if there is a legal precedent that requires the officer to track you for certain length of time or distance?

    I was driving a white Subaru wagon which is a very common car up here in the PNW. Traffic was light to moderate on a winding stretch of wooded two lane highway. Once I passed the first Ranger I lost sight immediately after (I was watching in my mirrors) as were traveling opposite directions. It was a minute or two before I passed the second Ranger that was waiting for me. I never saw he second Ranger again until she showed up about 2 to 3 minutes after I was stopped. She never came up to my car and could see her standing by her patrol car in my mirrors.

    I have been planning on my main defense to be they got my location wrong (I was in the 45 zone, not the 35 zone) and that the Ranger that issued the ticket never witnessed me.

    If there is a video camera in the Ranger's patrol cars, can I request a copy?

    Yes, this is being handled by the Federal Courts in Tacoma, WA.

    Also, if it matters. The Ranger that issued the ticket had quite an attitude towards me. He also asked for my phone number. When I asked him why that was needed he said "if you don't take care of this or go to court we can track you down to make sure you do". I eventually obliged after he insisted it was needed.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Speeding Ticket in National Park

    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    I fully understand that RADAR will clock your speed instantaneously, I was just wondering if there is a legal precedent that requires the officer to track you for certain length of time or distance?

    None that I know of -- instantaneous is usually good enough.

    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    I have been planning on my main defense to be they got my location wrong (I was in the 45 zone, not the 35 zone) and that the Ranger that issued the ticket never witnessed me.

    Regardless of whether is was 45 or 35, 56 in a 45 is NOT a defense -- you will be admitting to speeding. You WILL, therefore, be found guilty.

    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    If there is a video camera in the Ranger's patrol cars, can I request a copy?

    I don't know, but you can always try.

    Barry

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Speeding Ticket in National Park

    I was thinking if I can prove that the Ranger passed my in the 45 zone and not the 35 zone the case could be dismissed based on the technicality. I never did admit I was doing 56 and don't plan to. I still think I was not going that fast in the first place either.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Speeding Ticket in National Park

    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    Anybody have any thoughts?
    Glad you asked...

    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    To the best of my memory, I recall passing the oncoming Ranger in the 45 mph zone coming down the hill and shortly after that I entered the 35 mph zone. When telling the Ranger that issued the ticket I passed the other Ranger in a 45 mph zone, he insisted I was in the 35 zone doing 56 mph.
    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    I still think I was not going that fast in the first place either.
    I find it interesting that you were watching the speed limit signs and that you were aware of the speed limit zone changing and yet you aren't sure how fast you were going!

    Also, like Barry has suggested already, unless you can successfully show that the officer's reading of 56 was inaccurate, the difference between 35mph limit and the 45mph limit will not get you anywhere.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Speeding Ticket in National Park

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    I find it interesting that you were watching the speed limit signs and that you were aware of the speed limit zone changing and yet you aren't sure how fast you were going!
    As it was a windy road, I was not vigilantly watching my speedometer and maintaining a constant speed. I tend to drive by the flow of traffic and what feels safe to me (and I know that my definition of safe is not the same as the law). I personally do not "drive by the numbers". It's difficult being a fast driver in a slow world Man... I miss Germany...

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    Also, like Barry has suggested already, unless you can successfully show that the officer's reading of 56 was inaccurate, the difference between 35mph limit and the 45mph limit will not get you anywhere.
    So it would make no difference to the court if the Ranger fudged the location of the violation? I think that is unfair and unethical regardless what my speed was. I know for a fact I passed the Ranger well before I reaching the 35 zone, so how can they cite me for a violation on a section of road they did not witness me on?? What kind of society do we live in that government officials can arbitrarily fine their citizens on a whim? And our only recourse is to shut and pay the fine... cause "it's not worth the trouble"...???

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Speeding Ticket in National Park

    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    So it would make no difference to the court if the Ranger fudged the location of the violation? I think that is unfair and unethical regardless what my speed was. I know for a fact I passed the Ranger well before I reaching the 35 zone, so how can they cite me for a violation on a section of road they did not witness me on??
    You can make the "unethical claim" but just keep in mind that if the only proof that you have that you were in the 45mph zone is a mere "I know I was in the 45 zone" chances are it won't fly. And even if it were, then the court will most likely assume that the officer simply made an error.

    Still, let's assume that the court will buy into your version. That leaves you with having to justify your driving at 56 in 45. So the judge waits for an argument to refute that part of the officer's testimony. But its not coming, why? Because so far, you don't have one!
    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    What kind of society do we live in that government officials can arbitrarily fine their citizens on a whim?
    The same society where people think they "don't have to drive by numbers"; the same society where people think the law is a mere suggestion; the same society where an officer gets the same paycheck at the end of the month regardless of whether you are convicted or not; the same society where a defendant who stands to lose (the fine amount) is apparently more honest and forthright but the officer who stands to lose/gain nothing is an unethical liar; the same society that cries for and expects added security and extra enforcement but then it cries again when it gets caught red handed.. I could go on and on but I won't.
    Quote Quoting eric1050
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    And our only recourse is to shut and pay the fine... cause "it's not worth the trouble"...???
    Nobody is telling you to shut up and pay the fine.... Nobody is telling you not to fight the citation. By all means, fight it all the way to the appellate level if you choose. Just keep in mind that unless you have a reasonable defense, you'd be better off spending your money (paying the fine) instead of wasting your time.

    Ultimately, it is your money and your time... So the choice is yours.

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