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  1. #1
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    Oct 2009
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    Default No Left Turn Sign Violation

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

    I have 3 questions(at the bottom)

    About a 3 weeks ago, I was driving behind a bus, headed home at about 12am. As the street intersection came near, I would be making a left in order to go home. The bus arrived at the intersection where the traffic light was green. I was the 2nd vehicle after the bus right before the intersection.

    As the light turned green, I proceed to drive forward behind the bus and waited for the bus to create some distance between both our vehicles so I could make a safe left turn. I yielded to oncoming cars and when there were no cars coming in the other direction, I proceeded to make a left turn. After I made a left turn a motorcycle cop pulled me over and gave me a ticket for "CVC 22101(d) NO LEFT TURN SIGNS POSTED".

    Little did I know that there were 2 sign posted stating "no left turn". One sign was posted about 20 feet above the traffic light on the other end of the intersection of my left turn, WAY out of the field of vision for drivers. Drivers dont focus on signs that may be posted 20 feet above a traffic light when the traffic light is already 20 feet above ground level. The other no left turn sign was posted on my end of the intersection, about 5 feet above the traffic light. I was unable to see neither because the bus blocked my field of vision. Because I was behind the bus, I was not able to see the signs. Not only did the bus block my field of view, it was also 12am. Driving at night I am concerned with making a safe left turn and yielding to on-coming cars, not focusing on a no left turn sign posted 20 feet above the traffic light where oncoming car's headlight would have blinded me from seeing them. If this is relevant, this bus also comes about every 20-30 minutes.

    1)Is there any chance I may win If i decide to fight this case?
    2)Will I be able to post-pone the court date on my citation?
    I still have not yet received a courtesy notice and my court date on the citation is less than 14 days away. I do not have any paperwork except for the citation ticket i was issued.

    3)Is there anything I can do to help my case besides pictures?
    I clearly was unable to see the signs posted because of the bus and the fact that is was basically pitch dark(there are street light though). This would be my first ticket ever on my record. I also took pictures of the bus blocking the field of view; pictures of driver's view from inside the car with a bus in front of it.

    Thanks

    EDIT: I just called the number on the bottom of my citation and it says that there is no record yet of my citation and that it usually takes 4-6 weeks from the date of the citation issue and up to 90days to be processed.

    What do I do?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Violation

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    Little did I know that there were 2 sign posted stating "no left turn". One sign was posted about 20 feet above the traffic light on the other end of the intersection of my left turn, WAY out of the field of vision for drivers. Drivers dont focus on signs that may be posted 20 feet above a traffic light when the traffic light is already 20 feet above ground level.
    I'm having a hard time picturing this... Are you saying that they had a 20 foot pole above the 12 foot pole that usually holds the light where that sign was posted?

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    The other no left turn sign was posted on my end of the intersection, about 5 feet above the traffic light.
    So there was another sign posted that you could have seen as you approached the intersection and right before you checked/yielded for cross traffic. Also, by the time that you got to that point, were you not glancing up at the light to see when it will change from green to red? Did you not see the sign then.

    You can check the Federal Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices and the related California MUTCD Supplement to see if those sign do in fact meet the requirement. If not, then you have a pretty good argument. If they do meet the requirement, and you still failed to see the sign, then you've got very little chance of prevailing in court.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    Because I was behind the bus, I was not able to see the signs. Not only did the bus block my field of view
    But by the time you were in the intersection (checking cross traffic), the bus was long gone... Was it not?

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    it was also 12am.
    For the sign to meet the federal requirement, it should also be covered with reflective paint, allowing you to see it off of the refection of your headlights.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    Driving at night I am concerned with making a safe left turn and yielding to on-coming cars
    And in addition to your concern with safety, you should also try to be aware of and abide by regulatory signs that restrict specific movements or actions...

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    1)Is there any chance I may win If i decide to fight this case?
    In my opinion, your only chance is if those signs are not in compliance with the manual I mentioned. In other words, it is highly unlikely that any of the excuses that you posted here will get you out of the citation. Just my opinion.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    2)Will I be able to post-pone the court date on my citation?
    Yes, you can request an automatic 60 day extension for your appearance date. You can do that online (at the court's website), over the phone (by calling the number on your citation) or by going to court and requesting it from the traffic clerk. You maybe able to get it extended even farther than 60 days but that might require a court appearance for you to get that.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    I still have not yet received a courtesy notice and my court date on the citation is less than 14 days away. I do not have any paperwork except for the citation ticket i was issued.

    EDIT: I just called the number on the bottom of my citation and it says that there is no record yet of my citation and that it usually takes 4-6 weeks from the date of the citation issue and up to 90days to be processed.
    It takes a minimum of 21 days for the citation to be entered into the court system... Be patient, it will show up.

    The courtesy notice will just list your name, address, DL#, the offense charged, the citation number (all of which is information that you have on the citation) as well as your scheduled appearance date... it will also notify you of your fine amount (should be approximately $211) and whether you are eligible for traffic school on not (if you have not had any violations that you committed within the last 18 months which were dismissed after you attending traffic school, then you should be eligible).

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    19

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Violation

    "I'm having a hard time picturing this... Are you saying that they had a 20 foot pole above the 12 foot pole that usually holds the light where that sign was posted?"

    Yes, I am saying that, but it is not as wild as it may seem. There are a whole bunch of other signs posted as well. It looked like a mess when I went back there to snap some pictures.

    "So there was another sign posted that you could have seen as you approached the intersection and right before you checked/yielded for cross traffic. Also, by the time that you got to that point, were you not glancing up at the light to see when it will change from green to red? Did you not see the sign then."
    -There was another sign posted. Let me rephrase myself. There is one traffic light on the other end of the intersection, on the oncoming(left) side of the intersection, then there is another traffic light, on the right side of the intersection on my end. Both were blocked in my field of view by the bus. It may sound unreasonable, but when I took pictures of the intersection behind the bus, it was possible to not see both the signs because the bus itself is about 4 or 5 car lengths.

    "But by the time you were in the intersection (checking cross traffic), the bus was long gone... Was it not?"

    Because it was a bus, it had frequent stops and it was not long gone. However, being that it was 12am, there werent enough cars that made me wait long enough to make a safe left turn where the bus was long gone.

    would it also help to try to contest it via trial by written declaration?
    And the links you posted. If I understand correctly, the state of CA adopted the manual in 2006, but the manual is from 2003 correct? I can't seem to find where I would see if the signs posted are not in compliance with the manual...a little help? =)

    thanks

    EDIT: Would you recommend that I fight it via TBWD or just pay the fine and get traffic school so that I have a ZERO point record? If I do contest it via mail will I be able to do traffic school afterwards in the event that I do lose? I really want to have a 0 point record, even better, a record where I haven't been convicted of this infraction.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Violation

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    Yes, I am saying that, but it is not as wild as it may seem. There are a whole bunch of other signs posted as well. It looked like a mess when I went back there to snap some pictures.
    But the “no left turn sign” is in fact posted, is it not?

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    There was another sign posted. Let me rephrase myself. There is one traffic light on the other end of the intersection, on the oncoming(left) side of the intersection, then there is another traffic light, on the right side of the intersection on my end. Both were blocked in my field of view by the bus. It may sound unreasonable, but when I took pictures of the intersection behind the bus, it was possible to not see both the signs because the bus itself is about 4 or 5 car lengths.
    You can try you arguments... I'm not saying they won't work, I'm saying if I were the judge, I'd snicker, say “guilty” and move to the next case.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    Because it was a bus, it had frequent stops and it was not long gone. However, being that it was 12am, there werent enough cars that made me wait long enough to make a safe left turn where the bus was long gone.
    Buses don't stop in the middle of the intersection. They either stop before crossing the intersection or after crossing the intersection. Point is, if you had to stop, even for a few seconds, to check cross traffic so you could turn left, you should have seen at least, one of the signs. If you didn't, its because you weren't paying attention.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    Because it was a bus, it had frequent stops and it was not long gone. However, being that it was 12am, there werent enough cars that made me wait long enough to make a safe left turn where the bus was long gone.
    So earlier you said “the bus wasn't long gone”, now you're saying by the time you were making the turn, “the bus was long gone”!!!

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    would it also help to try to contest it via trial by written declaration?
    Whether you contest it by trial by declaration or by going to a regular trial, you'd have to present the court with a reasonable explanation as to why you didn't see either of the two signs... And “a bus was in front of you” isn't gonna cut it. Others may disagree.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    And the links you posted. If I understand correctly, the state of CA adopted the manual in 2006, but the manual is from 2003 correct?
    Correct.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    I can't seem to find where I would see if the signs posted are not in compliance with the manual...a little help? =)
    Got to Section 2B.19 - Turn Prohibition Signs (R3-1 through R3-4, and R3-18) which is on page “2B-22” of the California supplement, the second link I provided in my last post.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    EDIT: Would you recommend that I fight it via TBWD
    You can try... But I cannot predict that outcome... The judge will decide.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    or just pay the fine and get traffic school so that I have a ZERO point record?
    The upside to traffic school is that it will be dismissed, as if it never happened. The downside is that you'd have to pay the fine, the administrative fee, the cost for traffic school class... You need to make that decision.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    If I do contest it via mail will I be able to do traffic school afterwards in the event that I do lose?
    Some judges offer the traffic school option after a TBD or court trial, but most don't. So if you plead not guilty and opt for either a TBD or a court trial, you might not have the traffic school option afterwards.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    19

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Violation

    about the bus being lone gone. i guess im not being clear haha. what i meant was that the bus was not lone gone when i was stopping in the intersection to make sure no cross traffic was there. but i don't think that really matters for my case huh? lol

    I thought traffic school was so that you get zero points when you complete it and that there is still a record in your file of what has happened.

    About the procedures of showing up and court and all(contesting). Is it true that I can/it may be possible to postpone my court date 3 tmes before I cannot do it anymore?
    If I understand correctly, my citation ticket says on or before 10/15/09. Since I already called the local court # on the citation and went through an automated system that told me that my citation isn't in their system yet, does that mean I need do something by myself before 10/15/09?
    I'm somewhat confused on this part because I thought the court gives me a court date to appear and bail amount, but then the ticket says something about how i need to do something myself as well... If you could just clear that up for me...thanks!

    Just wondering, where does your knowledge or this/experience come from?
    You've been really helpful and I really appreciate it.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Violation

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    about the bus being lone gone. i guess im not being clear haha.
    Well, I guess I'm not being clear either.... Unless you can prove that the light turned green and the bus moved forward a bit and stopped in the middle of the intersection thereby blocking your view of the sign then the whole entire bus story is not gonna prove that the sign was not visible.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    what i meant was that the bus was not lone gone when i was stopping in the intersection to make sure no cross traffic was there. but i don't think that really matters for my case huh?
    its not that it doesn't matter... more like doesn't make sense... Then again, I wasn't there to see exactly what went on.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    I thought traffic school was so that you get zero points when you complete it and that there is still a record in your file of what has happened.
    When you successfully complete traffic school, and after the completion certificate is submitted to the court, the citation is dismissed and therefore, is not reported to the DMV. Therefore, it does not appear on your record.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    About the procedures of showing up and court and all(contesting). Is it true that I can/it may be possible to postpone my court date 3 tmes before I cannot do it anymore?
    You can get an automatic extension as I described above. Typically, that will be for 60 days from your original appearance date. If you need another extension, you would have to request one from the traffic clerk at the court. IF you still need a third one, then you will have to schedule a court date to see the judge. It depends on whether the judge will approve your request or not.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    If I understand correctly, my citation ticket says on or before 10/15/09. Since I already called the local court # on the citation and went through an automated system that told me that my citation isn't in their system yet, does that mean I need do something by myself before 10/15/09?
    It is not 10/15/09 yet... keep checking. If the ticket is still not in the system by that date, you should still appear in court on that date and request that the clerk give you proof that you did in fact show up (usually they stamp your ticket). After that, you need to continue to check until you either receive something from the court or until the ticket appears in the online system.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
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    Just wondering, where does your knowledge or this/experience come from?
    Personal experiences, this and other forums as well an extensive amount of research that I do on a regular basis.

    Quote Quoting Steeze
    View Post
    You've been really helpful and I really appreciate it.
    No problem...

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