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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3

    Default Is a Lie Always Dishonesty

    .
    My question involves unemployment benefits for the state of: Wisconsin

    I know the title question is stupid, but maybe it will prompt you to read the rest of this tale of woe and offer any insight and opinion.

    At 63, with no degree and mostly retail experience, I'm not in high demand in the current economy. I worked for a payday loan company. My boss gets told by her boss to "really turn up the heat" on past due customers. She calls on a Monday morning and tells me to collect $2000 by the end of the week or there will be "serious consequences." Ten people from another section were fired the week before, so the warning is loud and clear. Two weeks earlier, she posted "great job, keep it up" in our district chat room after I collected $800 in one week.

    It's now four o'clock on Friday and I've collected $1850, with two hours to go. Stressed out and scrambling to save my job, I come up with a real half-baked idea. John Doe, a long-time borrower, is two weeks behind on a $167 payment. I could buy a money order with my own money, make it out to the company, and use that to make his loan payment. It's not a plan, it's more like a knee-jerk reaction at the eleventh hour.

    Customers are supposed to sign paperwork when they make a partial payment, but managers can OK an exception for regular customers. Uncle Doe brings in the payment, John signs the forms the next day. Not that big a deal. My boss must be getting pressure from her boss, so I'm pretty sure she will tell me to just process John's payment today and get his signature on Monday.

    I decide to call and tell my boss that a money order came in the mail from John. She tells me to fax her a copy of it right away. Murphy's Law strikes with a vengeance. My heart rate soars. I'm grabbing at straws now, desperately trying to think of anything that will get me out of this mess I have created. When all else fails, why not try honesty? The jig is up anyway. There was the concept of a money order, there was a potential money order, but it will take almost half an hour for me to get back from the nearest bank with an real money order.

    I call my boss back and 'fess up. I say that in a moment of desperation and near panic with time running out, I thought about buying the money order myself. It was my last-ditch attempt to reach the $2000 target and keep from getting fired. I put some of the blame on the pressure, which did cause a lot of sleeping and eating problems all week, but I do take full responsibility for my actions and I apologize to her.

    On Monday I am "grilled" for two hours by a corporate fraud investigator and then terminated.

    My determination from Unemployment Insurance reads:

    "The employee was discharged for misconduct. The employee was discharged for violating a reasonable, known work rule and dishonesty. The employee's actions showed a willful and substantial disregard of the employer's interest." Applicable Wisconsin Law: 108.04(5)

    My Questions:

    1. Are misconduct, violating a work rule, dishonesty, and willful and substantial disregard separate allegations, or is misconduct the blanket term and the others are the specific instances which are the misconduct?

    2. If one of the charges can be successfully challenged, i.e. substantial, does that make any overall difference in winning an appeal?

    3. Do I only get one chance to refute everything, or does it go back for some kind of re-determination?

    4. Does my apology prove or substantiate any of these allegations to such an extent that an appeal would be automatically denied?

    5. Do I have even a slim chance of winning an appeal on this?

    6. Can you suggest anything else to use in an appeal?

    7. Do you see any reason to think I would have a better chance if I retain a lawyer?

    8. Am I just completely spinning my wheels?

    My thanks to anyone who reads this and responds.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,357

    Default Re: Is a Lie Always Dishonesty

    1. "Misconduct" can have differently meanings depending on the purporse for which it is being applied.

    2. I don't see how you can challenge anything. It was fraud, pure and simple. You claimed that Joe made the payment even though it was your money.

    3. There is always an appeal provision, but that seems to imply you think you'll lose. So do I.

    4. Nope.

    5. Hardly any.

    6. Nope.

    7. Nope.

    8. Yep.

    Here's where your logic was convoluted (not including the fraud issue). If you had been fired for the failure to collect the stated dollar amount, you almost certainly would have qualified for benefits. This way, you almost certainly don't. So now, you don't have a job OR UI benefits.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    24,074

    Default Re: Is a Lie Always Dishonesty

    Sorry, but I concur with Patty right down the line.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: Is a Lie Always Dishonesty

    Quote Quoting PattyPA
    View Post
    2. I don't see how you can challenge anything. It was fraud, pure and simple. You claimed that Joe made the payment even though it was your money.
    .
    Thanks for replying PattyPA.

    So would it be just a lie but NOT a fraud if I had said "a money order came for John's payment" rather than "from John"?

    Or is any lie also fraud?

    I certainly don't have a lawyer's understanding of just what is fraud and what isn't. I look at it this way: John owed $167 before this incident, and he still owed $167 afterward. The company came out even -- no gain or loss. It isn't like I marked his account paid, put my money order in the cash drawer, then changed my mind, voided the transction, and took the money order back. That would be fraud/dishonesty/theft or whatever, even if I had paid for the money order.

    Hypothetical: I take John Doe's water bill, buy a money order, pay the bill at city hall, and don't tell them I'm not John. Does the city consider the bill paid? Did anyone commit fraud, or do anything illegal or unethical? Was anyone harmed in any way?

    Quote Quoting PattyPA
    View Post
    Here's where your logic was convoluted (not including the fraud issue). If you had been fired for the failure to collect the stated dollar amount, you almost certainly would have qualified for benefits. This way, you almost certainly don't.
    .
    I would have thought "half-baked idea" and "knee-jerk reaction at the eleventh hour" were enough of a hint that I wasn't thinking logically. My objective was to keep my job and avoid unemployment altogether, not to make sure I protected my eligibility for it. People would never get anything done at work if they stopped to ask "Will I still be able to get unemployment?" before deciding to do something.

    Quote Quoting PattyPA
    View Post
    So now, you don't have a job OR UI benefits.
    .
    I may be misunderstanding this, or perhaps reading too much into it, but it almost seems like you would be glad, or take some satisfaction if you're right .

    I have read many of your comments and responses to other threads here, and found them to be generally helpful and supportive, with hardly any "Yeps" or "Nopes." In my case, not so much. To see if it was just me, I asked two friends to read my post and your reply, and they agree. I'm not sure what it might be about my situation or the questions, but you seem to be almost offended that I would ask for advice about it.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,357

    Default Re: Is a Lie Always Dishonesty

    I have no feeling about it one way or the other. I'm saying you made a bad decision and you're paying for it.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Il.(near StL,Mo.)
    Posts
    5,252

    Default Re: Is a Lie Always Dishonesty

    richton, Patty was just answering your questions truthfully - the same answers I would have given. Sorry. You did something you shouldn't have done.

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