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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2

    Exclamation Collector Trying to Collect Invalid Debt on Behalf of Contractor - Verbal Agreement

    My question involves collection proceedings in the State of: North Dakota

    I am writing to ask where I stand on the following issue. Basically, I need to know if I am doing the right thing and if there is something else that I need to be doing.

    I had a contractor come to my home to give me an estimate on repairs. He claimed that he could not give a written estimate because "these things are tricky." I replied that I needed to have at least an idea of what we were talking about to see if I could afford the work. He remarked that he was thinking around X amount, just a certain amount per hour for about X number of hours and materials. He also stated that he would let me know if there were any unexpected repairs such as structural damage before repairing them, but it certainly wouldn't be over XX amount.
    The contractor quickly completed the repairs and left me a bill for just arely under XX amount. The bill simply stated "repair."
    This amount seemed outrageous to me - this bill was 3X was he state for hours and total amount - and there were no unexpected repairs and the repair went quickly. I called and asked for an itemized statement (voice mail) and asked him to call me. He did not call, but I recieved a second bill that itemized "labor, materials, garbage removal, and floor coverings." I felt this wasn't right because he stated "labor and materials" only in our agreement. The floor coverings were blankets (they were left in my house overnight) - if I was paying for floor coverings that could be used again, I think perhaps I should own them and have possession! The billing had no phone number on them and I could not locate the contractor's number (it is unlisted or just a cell aparently). I wrote him a letter.
    The letter stated that I tried to contact him. I then stated some of my concerns with the bill and asked for receipts for materials, garbage removal, and floor coverings. I also asked him to call me. I included a partial payment of good faith with the letter.
    When he did call, he was very argumentative. The result of the conversation was that he did not feel it was worth his time and effort to get together receipts that he had already filed away (this was two weeks after the completion). He was upset that I didn't trust him. He said that I could pay half if that would make me happy. He also said that I didn't just pay for labor for the actual job, but also for drive-time to get materials.
    I wrote another letter per our conversation and included payment for a little over half with "final payment" written in the memo. He did not cash the check and I did not hear from him until over a month later when he stated he did not accept payment. He wanted the full amount and he said he had gotten his "credit card receipts" together but if I wanted to see them I was going to have to pay for his time - $XXX.
    I told him I had given him final payment per our agreement. I contacted the Better Business Bureau and they attempted mediation. He did accept mediation and the letter he wrote to them is riddled with lies.
    The contractor called me to ask if I was going to pay. I said I already did. He said he would send me to collections. I received a letter from collections and I have prepare a letter of dispute.
    My questions:
    Do I have a leg to stand on?
    What items of proof should I be trying to gather?
    Does the collection agency need a contract signed by me to enforce debt collection?
    Does he have the right to charge me to view his receipts?
    Does he have the right to charge me for drive-time to buy materials?
    Do credit card receipts count as actual receipts of payment for materials? In my book they do not. I want to see sales receipts.
    When disputing the charge do I ever disclose information such as the letters I wrote to him or my story to the collection agency?
    Thanks so much for your time!!!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Behind a Desk
    Posts
    98,846

    Default Re: Collector Trying to Collect Invalid Debt on Behalf of Contractor - Verbal Agreeme

    Do you have a leg to stand on where? If he sues you?

    You know the work that was performed. You can see if you can find another contractor who is willing to review the work and state what he would expect it to cost, and see how that lines up with what you were billed. You'll want a licensed, qualified contractor who is willing to testify in court if necessary, and you should expect to pay for this service.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    1,995

    Default Re: Collector Trying to Collect Invalid Debt on Behalf of Contractor - Verbal Agreeme

    Maybe you should look at a few other angles before the "going to court" route.

    In don't know what is common in your state, where I am, I can go to "consumer affairs" that licenses contractors, and the BBB (Better Business Bureau) who can help arbitrate, but also establish a file on bad abusive contractors.

    I mentioned consumer affairs, or whoever license contractors out your way, and where I am, they've been cracking down of abusive unlicensed uninsured contractors by prohibiting them from collecting the bills, to seizing the vehicles of the offenders. The question is "is this guy licensed and insured"??

    Rules out my way also called for written estimates agreed to by the consumer. It could be that your contractor may be violating some rules.

    Maybe you should look at a few other angles before the "going to court" route.

    In don't know what is common in your state, where I am, I can go to "consumer affairs" that licenses contractors, and the BBB (Better Business Bureau) who can help arbitrate, but also establish a file on bad abusive contractors.

    I mentioned consumer affairs, or whoever license contractors out your way, and where I am, they've been cracking down of abusive unlicensed uninsured contractors by prohibiting them from collecting the bills, to seizing the vehicles of the offenders. The question is "is this guy licensed and insured"??

    Rules out my way also called for written estimates agreed to by the consumer. It could be that your contractor may be violating some rules.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    666

    Default Re: Collector Trying to Collect Invalid Debt on Behalf of Contractor - Verbal Agreeme

    Unfortunately, you haven't indicated how much money is involved. That is important to know if this would be a small claims court issue or not. From what you've said, it appears that you may have had a verbal time and materials contract at a stated labor rate with a not exceed (which he did not exceed). You should have a pretty good idea of how many hours he had at your site. You should also have a reasonable idea of what he had to purchase in materials. From that, you should be able to figure a base cost for the repair. To that, you can add other reasonable costs. Time for picking up materials is valid, and may take longer than you would initially think, so be a bit generous in your allowance for that. Floor coverings (I'm assuming you mean heavy blankets to protect your floors during the repair work) also cost money, so a "rental cost" for the use of them is reasonable. From that, you should be able to do a ballpark on your own on what the cost should have been. If it is close to what he is asking, pay the bill.

    If your estimate is significantly less than what he is asking for, tell the collections company that the claim is invalid, you have paid what should have been billed, and if they believe differently they should send you copies of whatever they have to validate their claim. If all they provide is a copy of the bill from him that says "repairs" with no other detail, ignore it. If they have other documentation review it carefully; it may have something that you didn't realize. Copies of his credit card receipts are really not very useful unless you recognize items that you know were used on your repairs.

    If they do not provide adequate documentation and this is a small claims issue, wait and let him sue you and take your estimate to court, remembering to tell the judge your agreement was a time and materials contract, and this represents your documentation of the time and materials provided. If he shows up in court with a copy of an invoice showing "repairs XX dollars", you would probably win. On a time and materials contract, it is reasonable to expect an invoice that at least shows how much is for labor and how much is for materials. If someone is billing more hours than existed in the time frame of the job, it stands out like a sore thumb.

    If this is above the limits for small claims, do the calculation as indicated above. If you decide not to pay in this case, see an attorney for advice before chosing to ignore the bills.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: Collector Trying to Collect Invalid Debt on Behalf of Contractor - Verbal Agreeme

    Wow - thank you everyone for the good advice. I guess I mean "a leg to stand on" with arguing this. I really want to avoid small claims court, but I'm feeling a little bit stubborn about the principle of the matter so we'll see. The amount of the bid was and I quote, "I was thinking around $300, 8 hours of work at $30 an hour plus materials. Of course, that's if there's nothing else wrong. But if there is any other damage like structural damage that we can't see I'll talk to ya about it before I fix it. But yeah, even then not over a $1000." The bill that was dropped off on day 3 was for $975. It simply said "plaster repair."
    The second bill was itemized and seemed excessive. The blanket he used was the same cheap blankets we use at my school as emergency blankets -there was one and he charged me $70. When I asked again for receipts he told me I could figure out myself what the hours were - couldn't I do math? The only way he got the hours he figured would be by staying at my house from the time he got there (8:30 am) to minutes before I got home from work at 4:00 and not stopping for lunch or any breaks - and that would be generous with the drive time as well.
    The first day, he tore down damaged plaster, cleaned up, and put a patch over the lathe. The second day he put another skim coat over the first coat. The last day, he put the finish texture coat on. The two patches are roughly 5 X 3 and 2 X 4 feet. I have done some repair on other plaster areas of my house so I know what time goes into these things. I didn't do this myself because I wanted someone who could match the texture (he didn't do that either). There is no way in H--- that day two and three took the time he indicated. Day one I'll give him - tearing that down probably took a long time.
    When I again indicated that I'd like to see receipts he still wouldn't give them to me and then much later said if I wanted to see his credit card receipts it was going to cost me $240. I didn't ask for his CC receipts - I wanted sales receipts. If he could have shown me that this cost what he charged me, I would have paid immediately.
    I will take your advice right away about having another contractor give me a bid - quick question about that... Is it going to be difficult to find someone who will give me this estimate if it means ratting out someone who is in the same field? I am, of course,willing to pay for this.
    Anyhoo - I'm not trying to be a pain to this guy I just really feel like he's trying to take advantage of me.
    Thanks again for your input. I will check some of the consumer rules as well. I didn't know that kind of thing existed.
    THANK YOU!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Collector Trying to Collect Invalid Debt on Behalf of Contractor - Verbal Agreeme

    can he prove he did the work, and can he prove you agreed to pay him that ammount, if not .. don't pay him S&*#, I hate people that scam others like that.

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