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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    1

    Unhappy Can the State Require You to Carry ID Even When Not Driving

    My question involves civil rights in the State of: Rhode Island

    I hope this is the right area, I wasn't sure if I should go here or in the accident area.

    Recently, myself and my husband were pulled over because I had turned around in a parking lot on the end of our street. The officer thought this was "suspicious behavior" even though they had resurfaced the sidewalk in front of the parking lot earlier that day, and we thought we weren't supposed to drive on it yet, because when we got to the lot, we could see the barricades were still up. We didn't see that the barricade was only for one section of the exit, we thought it was for the whole thing, thus we turned around. (Our street has two exits, one is through a parking lot for a furniture store, the other is onto a very busy street. We usually exit by the parking lot, because people driving on the street often drive very fast, and there have been a number of accidents there. It is safer to use the parking lot to exit, and the store owner doesn't mind.)

    When we were pulled over, I was driving. I produced my drivers license. The officer demanded to see my husband's driver's license as well. He (husband) pointed out that since he was not driving and was not planning on going anywhere where a license was required, he hadn't brought it. The officer told him that under Rhode Island law, when we got our license, we agreed to carry it on us at all times, no matter what we were doing.

    I admit, I did not read every single word of my license renewal, but I was rather shocked to be told this. Having to carry your license on you at all times is something that is usually expected in countries where freedom is seriously restricted.

    After running my drivers license, the officer let us go, but sternly warned my husband that he'd better never be caught outside without his drivers license on him ever again, the implication being that if he was, he would be in serious trouble.

    Is this really a law in RI? And how can they get away with it? I never drive without my licenses on me, but there are times when I go out walking or other activities where I'm not driving and I don't carry my license. I didn't know that at any time, a police officer could come up to me and demand I show ID, if I wasn't doing anything illegal or suspicious.

    Yes, I understand that turning around in the parking lot was suspicious, however, I was the one turning around, not my husband. I had my license on me.

    Thanks for any help anyone can give me for this question. It's really bothering me. If it is the law in Rhode Island, then that tells me that this country is not the same country I was born into.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Toledo, OH
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    16,307

    Default Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving

    I have scoured the RI DMV site, and cannot find any such regulation. Neither have I been able to find any mention of such a regulation in numerous searches.

    Honestly, I've never heard of drivers being required to carry their licenses even when not driving in any state of the Union. The only mention I've found in my searches has pertained to having it on you while driving, Rhode Island included:

    § 31-10-27 License to be carried and exhibited on demand. – (a) Every licensee shall have his or her operator's or chauffeur's license in his or her immediate possession at all times when operating a motor vehicle and shall display the license upon the demand of any peace office or inspector of the division of motor vehicles and shall, upon request by any proper officer, write his or her name in the presence of that officer for the purpose of being identified. However, no person charged with violating this section shall be convicted if he or she produces in court or the office of the arresting officer an operator's or chauffeur's license previously issued to him or her and valid at the time of his or her arrest.

    http://www.rilin.state.ri.us/Statute...0/31-10-27.HTM
    While it's certainly a good idea to have ID on you (in the unfortunate instance of being mashed by a bus, for example), I can't find anything requiring it.

    I spent my dinner hour discussing this with my husband, who is regularly stopped for what we call "driving while Brown" (he is of Middle Eastern descent). You don't mention your race...but is it possible that this is what happened to you?

    Call the DMV in the morning and ask if this officer was correct, and demand the exact statute if you are told it is. If it is not, consider filing a complaint with the police department (even if you're white).

  3. #3

    Default Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving

    I know Massachusetts passed a law allowing the police to ask for ID from car passengers anytime a vehicle is pulled over but I wasn't aware that RI came on board with that one yet. Maybe part of some Homeland security effort who knows.

    I don't believe that it's a law that RIers carry their license or ID at all times but it sure is a good idea. In a car or on the street you have a much less expectation of privacy than in your home.

    It's doubtful the police had sufficient probable cause to even stop you in the first place but just try proving that these days. Certainly any attempt to argue or ask the officer for that statute at that time would have resulted in your husband being detained for a fingerprinting. Civil rights don't exist at that point.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    3,835

    Default Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving

    Quote Quoting MorningCoffee
    View Post
    I know Massachusetts passed a law allowing the police to ask for ID from car passengers anytime a vehicle is pulled over but I wasn't aware that RI came on board with that one yet. Maybe part of some Homeland security effort who knows.

    Can you cite the law please, I am curious! I want to see what, if any penalties, are prescribed for a violation!

    Under Hiibel, without any individualized suspicion of a passenger during an investigatory stop of a driver, what legal justification there would be for a penalty!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,835

    Default Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving

    Dargstar, this is the the only "stop and identify" statute, per Hiibel, I could find for RI:

    § 12-7-1 Temporary detention of suspects. – A peace officer may detain any person abroad whom he or she has reason to suspect is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime, and may demand of the person his or her name, address, business abroad, and destination; and any person who fails to identify himself or herself and explain his or her actions to the satisfaction of the peace officer may be further detained and further questioned and investigated by any peace officer; provided, in no case shall the total period of the detention exceed two (2) hours, and the detention shall not be recorded as an arrest in any official record. At the end of the detention period the person so detained shall be released unless arrested and charged with a crime.


    Unless your specific municipality has such a law AND the person is "under investigation" there is NO mandate you show an officer an ID.

    Say for example, you are walking down the street and an officer pulls up and requests to see your ID. You can ask "Am I under investigation"? If the answer is NO, then you can refuse.

    Additionally Hiibel does NOT mandate an ID be furnished, as some do not have one, either a DL or state issued identification card, your NAME will suffice.

    Of course, if driving, you must have a DL.

  6. #6

    Default Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving

    There is no law in MA that says you have to carry ID but police have the right to ask for ID from passengers during a stop. They are looking for warrants on passengers. I'll have to look up the statute but its been in effect for several years now.

    Quote Quoting BOR
    View Post
    Can you cite the law please, I am curious! I want to see what, if any penalties, are prescribed for a violation!

    Under Hiibel, without any individualized suspicion of a passenger during an investigatory stop of a driver, what legal justification there would be for a penalty!

  7. #7

    Default Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving

    Its not as cut and dry as I had heard. They have the right to ask for the 'true name and address' of any occupant of a vehicle at the officers request one hour after sunset and one hour before sunrise. Does this violate Hiibel?

    There was a law enacted to force any passenger that wasn't wearing a seatbelt to give ID for the purposes of a citation but that may have been reversed because I can't find the wording anywhere.

    MGL Chapter 85: Section 16.

    There was a case a few years back where a south shore Massachusetts musician had a handheld digital recorder and taped police who had pulled him over harassing him and threaten to plant cocaine on him. When he sued police he was criminally charged with illegally taping the police. Thats a true story. My point is that police and lower courts don't readily recognize legal nuances that are precedent and someone on the street is often at the mercy of these 'people' till someone pushes back and wins. They are really looking for a way to do a warrant check and will lie about whatever is necessary to get the probable cause ('I smelled the odor of marijuana', or furtive movements which is my favorite) by hook or crook to expand the scope of the stop if they want to.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    3,835

    Default Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving

    Quote Quoting Darqstar
    View Post
    I admit, I did not read every single word of my license renewal, but I was rather shocked to be told this. Having to carry your license on you at all times is something that is usually expected in countries where freedom is seriously restricted.

    After running my drivers license, the officer let us go, but sternly warned my husband that he'd better never be caught outside without his drivers license on him ever again, the implication being that if he was, he would be in serious trouble.


    Yes, I understand that turning around in the parking lot was suspicious, however, I was the one turning around, not my husband. I had my license on me.

    Thanks for any help anyone can give me for this question. It's really bothering me. If it is the law in Rhode Island, then that tells me that this country is not the same country I was born into.

    Your behavior was not suspicious, it was just turned into an "investigatory stop", by a cop who had nothing else to do, see the Terry v. Ohio case in opinion. Of course if the stop was complained of, he would just enforce the stop with other facts.

    Is this really a law in RI? And how can they get away with it? I never drive without my licenses on me, but there are times when I go out walking or other activities where I'm not driving and I don't carry my license.

    Never heard of such a thing in all the 50 that joined the Union. He was just being a big shot. Let's assume for the sake of argument, this archaic/contemporary law exists and your husband did not have it on him while a passenger, he would NOT be in "serious" trouble, again the officer has a heavy badge, he likes to flaunt it.

    The US SC has ruled the punishment for a crime must be proportional to the crime, regardless of classification.


    I didn't know that at any time, a police officer could come up to me and demand I show ID, if I wasn't doing anything illegal or suspicious.


    There is nothing in the federal constitution that forbids "simply asking", even without any individualized suspicion. As of the initial contact it would be a "police -citizen encounter". However, to make a DEMAND of such, there must be a constitutional/statutory reason. Does the RI constitution forbid such without cause in spite of the federal's authority?? Most probably not!!

    Hiibel her outlines such, as a primer for you on this topic.


    http://supreme.justia.com/us/542/03-5554/case.html

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving

    The officer told him that under Rhode Island law, when we got our license, we agreed to carry it on us at all times, no matter what we were doing.

    I admit, I did not read every single word of my license renewal, but I was rather shocked to be told this. Having to carry your license on you at all times is something that is usually expected in countries where freedom is seriously restricted.

    After running my drivers license, the officer let us go, but sternly warned my husband that he'd better never be caught outside without his drivers license on him ever again, the implication being that if he was, he would be in serious trouble.

    Is this really a law in RI?
    This sounded like it was dripping with BS. The part about having your license on you at all times. What the country do we live in, post WWII East Germany? “Papiere, bitte…”

    They had no right asking for the passenger’s ‘papers’.

    I did an extensive search and came up with nothing on having to carry it at all times.

    Did find this however, but no update:

    http://writ.news.findlaw.com/student...12_sucher.html

    It may not be a ‘law’ per se, but it may be enforced like it is. The bottom line here is that if a police officer can get away with saying something 999 out of 1000 times to make his life easier, he’s going to do it, whether it’s ‘law’ or not. Whilst there was no real valid reason for requiring the DL of the passenger, the fellow was throwing his weight around anyway.

    http://www.dmv.ri.gov/documents/manu...ing_Manual.pdf

    There is no mention in the RI driving manual about carrying anything at all times, other than insurance, and your license when DRIVING.

    So the short answer is, Mr. Police officer LIED.

    And how can they get away with it?
    Because We the People LET them get away with it.

    Thanks for any help anyone can give me for this question. It's really bothering me. If it is the law in Rhode Island, then that tells me that this country is not the same country I was born into.
    Exactly. This is NOT the same country you were born into. Patriot Act I and II, along with numerous executive orders by King George made sure of that.

    We live in a soon to be 3rd world Banana republic. Napoleonic law now rules the day, and you are guilty until proven innocent.

    Until people stand up to things like this, fight back in court, and actually WIN, it will never stop, and it is actually increasing exponentially as time goes on. Civics are not even taught in school anymore, and the upcoming generation has NO CLUE what their rights are.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,835

    Default Re: License Must Be Carried Even when Not Driving

    Quote Quoting BrieReed
    View Post
    This sounded like it was dripping with BS. The part about having your license on you at all times. What the country do we live in, post WWII East Germany? “Papiere, bitte…”

    They had no right asking for the passenger’s ‘papers’.

    I did an extensive search and came up with nothing on having to carry it at all times.

    Did find this however, but no update:

    http://writ.news.findlaw.com/student...12_sucher.html

    Your link there discusses Hiibel, decided in 2004. The SC never stated an ID must be presented by those under investigation and if that jurisdiction has a stop and identify law. It stated a NAME may substitute for it. Even they recognized it is not mandatory to produce ID. Of course, again we are not talking about a person driving who must have a DL.

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