Third Degree Shoplifting

[cyjeff]

What constitutes planning? If she was there and did it on a whim is that the same thing?

Planning... like bringing three empty bags (the kind with Snoopy on them) into the workplace to make it easier to steal.

[tonytocayjuega]

The bags were part of the theft, she didn't bring them with her.

I thank you for your help, I really do. The more I know the better. But the sarcasm isn't necessary. I have broken no crime and i do not steal. I am simply trying to figure out a way to help someone i love. I'm sure you have your opinions of her which run contradictory to mine but remember she's not reading this, I am, so judgment is useless here.

And I brought up snoopy to denote the bags value, in case that wasn't clear. And in no way is my alluding to the bags lack of value a way of detracting from the severity of the crime, just my way of letting you know that i am completely surprised by the value JC Penny reported to the police based on the merchandise in question.

I'm confused as to the vocabulary of the specific law. It says that "'Full retail value' means the merchant's stated or advertised price of the merchandise". Does that mean the original price on the tags, or what they're actually selling it for(the sale price).

[cyjeff]

I was not being sarcastic at all.

I included the description to link the question to the established facts.

Full retail value is the value that a regular customer could be expected to pay for this or a like item without any perm or temp price reductions applied.

[tonytocayjuega]

Thank you very much.

[bam!]

She will also be receiving a civil demand in the mail. It may be for the $8500

I have never seen a state allow civil demand that high. Most states max it out between $1000-$3000. You and other posters claim to be the know all end all of civil demand but you guys are plain wrong about the entire process. If they can prove the $8500 they will have to collect through civil restitution, not civil demand. I am going to compose a post about civil demand, the process, the shoplifters rights and basically what will happen if you do or do not pay. I am hoping the moderator will make it a sticky. Then you and your partner can reference my post whenever people ask civil demand questions instead of giving them your usual incorrect advice.

This has the potential to effect her future in a multitude of ways. For instance, she will never work in retail or for a retailer again.

Wrong again. Many retailers do not use background checks or the oh so great theft database. It won't be the easiest, but it can be done.

Stop giving out concrete answers. You and your cohorts either need make posts which are accurate or stop posting at all.

Police make arrests. The security officers are allowed to detain pending the arrival of the police. Until that time, she was not arrested.

Wow. Don't tell souperdave, paulE or any of the other LP's on the board about this. The swear up and down security/LP make arrests.

[tonytocayjuega]

Don't know if this will make it in a sticky or something, but, according to the lawyer we talked to today "full retail value" doesn't necessarily mean the original price. In the state of New Jersey "full retail value" means the merchant's stated or advertised price of the merchandise. Therefore if the prices advertised are the sale price, 40% off or buy 1 get 1 50% off, then that should be the value the alleged shoplifter is accused of stealing. I can't say if thats completely the case, but that's something to bring up to your lawyer if you face a similar situation. If this ends up being the case we could probably bring the charges down from 3rd degree to 4th, and if theres some crazy miracle, maybe even disorderly persons offense.

[cyjeff]

Wow. Don't tell souperdave, paulE or any of the other LP's on the board about this. The swear up and down security/LP make arrests.

Listen, I have actually BEEN LP. I have written LP policies for retailers with hundreds of locations. I have testified in shop lifting cases, detained shop lifting suspects and questioned them to get the story. Have you?

We have the same rights as any citizen to, theoretically, make a citizen's arrest.

HOWEVER, in most states, the LP has the power to detain the suspect until the police arrive.

LP cannot imprison, arrest, or hold until bail is secured. That would be the job of police.

[tonytocayjuega]

You really need to calm down. The statement, "confession", may not hold up in court due to the manner in which it was given and the situation was handled. All they probably have is tapes of her going into a fitting room and/or a statement that might not hold up in court, thats debatable.

They didn't ask her for one, they told her she had to write one. When she wrote down a number they told her that was wrong and that it was higher. They gave her a number and she wrote it down, she was in a distressed state of mind. If you don't think her state of mind, the manner of which the whole affair was handled, and the coercive attitude the LP agent had will affect the validity of the statement in court you are mistaken.

Again i am not talking about the 534 dollars they accused her of stealing, however, recent investigations have shown that she didn't steal that amount. I don't know how they came to that number, but what she stole didn't equal to that amount. What we think the true amount is closer to 400 dollars. That is, of course, the advertised discount price isn't what she's charged with. If the advertised price is what she's supposed to be charged with then the number is more like 300. She will of course get a civil demand for what she was caught with and will of course pay that amount. That is proof for that instance. What i am saying they do not have proof of is theft on other occasions. They may or may not have inconclusive tapes because unless they have cameras in the fitting rooms they have no video of concealment. The only other "proof" they have is a shaky statement.

Yes because 20 year old girls can't get scared, like 50 year old women can't. Because its totally inhuman for common reasoning to take a backseat to fear.

Well funny how they're going to sue me when I'm not charged with anything. Anyway, "they will sue you in court" isn't an indication of what they need to prove but thank you for trying to answer my question.

Panther, I understand that the jewelry discount is incidental and in court may not count as an advertised price. However the bags, sweater, etc are advertised at specific discounted prices. That, according to the statute, should be what she's being charged with. And either way, if she is supposed to be charged with the original price and not the advertised then the number still doesn't come to over 500. We know the exact price of all the non-jewelry items she took. With that subtracted from the whole each piece of jewelry would have to average 20 dollars for the amount that they charged her with to hold. I looked at the jewelry she took, and i know her tastes and what she'd go for. Most of what she would have and probably did take was 8-15 dollars, most of it to the lower end of the spectrum. I was hard pressed to find anything close to or more than 20 dollars except for one brand, and she took 4 things from that brand, so we know that one brand isn't what made the number so high.

[cyjeff]

You really need to calm down. The statement, "confession", may not hold up in court due to the manner in which it was given and the situation was handled. All they probably have is tapes of her going into a fitting room and/or a statement that might not hold up in court, thats debatable.

Fine. You keep believing that.

They didn't ask her for one, they told her she had to write one.

Standard practice.

It is not against the law for them to ask. She didn't have to do it, but they can certainly ask.

When she wrote down a number they told her that was wrong and that it was higher. They gave her a number and she wrote it down, she was in a distressed state of mind. If you don't think her state of mind, the manner of which the whole affair was handled, and the coercive attitude the LP agent had will affect the validity of the statement in court you are mistaken.

Not at all. I know you don't believe this, but this situation isn't exactly unique.

EVERY statement taken is given by a shoplifter in a distressed state of mind. That does not excuse her actions or invalidates her statement.

The fact that she repeatedly stole prior to finding out her legal rights if caught also isn't the problem of the court.

Again i am not talking about the 534 dollars they accused her of stealing, however, recent investigations have shown that she didn't steal that amount. I don't know how they came to that number, but what she stole didn't equal to that amount. What we think the true amount is closer to 400 dollars. That is, of course, the advertised discount price isn't what she's charged with. If the advertised price is what she's supposed to be charged with then the number is more like 300. She will of course get a civil demand for what she was caught with and will of course pay that amount. That is proof for that instance. What i am saying they do not have proof of is theft on other occasions. They may or may not have inconclusive tapes because unless they have cameras in the fitting rooms they have no video of concealment. The only other "proof" they have is a shaky statement.

They may or may not. I guess she will have to wait for court.

Yes because 20 year old girls can't get scared, like 50 year old women can't. Because its totally inhuman for common reasoning to take a backseat to fear.

Which doesn't invalidate her statement at all. See above reference to "everyone caught shoplifting" statement.

Being arrested is a stressful time.

Well funny how they're going to sue me when I'm not charged with anything. Anyway, "they will sue you in court" isn't an indication of what they need to prove but thank you for trying to answer my question.

Don't be a jerk. I was using the collective "YOU" to describe your case.

If you want to get cute with language, I recommend you correct your grammar first.

Panther, I understand that the jewelry discount is incidental and in court may not count as an advertised price. However the bags, sweater, etc are advertised at specific discounted prices. That, according to the statute, should be what she's being charged with. And either way, if she is supposed to be charged with the original price and not the advertised then the number still doesn't come to over 500. We know the exact price of all the non-jewelry items she took. With that subtracted from the whole each piece of jewelry would have to average 20 dollars for the amount that they charged her with to hold. I looked at the jewelry she took, and i know her tastes and what she'd go for. Most of what she would have and probably did take was 8-15 dollars, most of it to the lower end of the spectrum. I was hard pressed to find anything close to or more than 20 dollars except for one brand, and she took 4 things from that brand, so we know that one brand isn't what made the number so high.

Then that would be for her attorney to present. I don't know how the LP arrived at that number.

Neither do you...