Using Videotape To Prevent Rape Accusations

[cdwjava]

Again your misinterpreting my post to satisfy your personal viewpoints and insecurities instead of addressing my questions & points.

The point is that under CA law, this activity can be unlawful.

If you secretly tape yourself having sex with various consential partners and don't market, sell them or show them, law enforcement is not going to arrest you, if you use one to prove to them you did not rape someone. Sorry, it ain't going to happen.

Tapes have a nasty habit of appearing when people don't want them to ... I work sex crimes for my agency, and a couple times a year we get cases similar to this where the tapes were uncovered by someone and then turned over to us. It happens ... with some regularity.

And I can't imagine anyone telling me with a straight face (and meaning it) that they are taping the encounter SOLELY for their own protection in the event of a false accusation of rape. And since chances are they will be reviewing them for their own jollies, someone is far more likely to come across them than if they were saved on a dedicated server somewhere.

And just WHO would be SO paranoid?!

I never heard of anyone being charged with a crime for having consentual sex with a drunk woman.

I have. But them it's the nature of my business.

[/quote]Sorry, some guy like Tyson who invites you into his hotel room at 4:00 AM or whenever it was, and you think he's not expecting something? I'll always think Tyson got set up.[/QUOTE]
Maybe he was ... but his lifestyle left himself wide open to that sort of thing whether true or not. And, in the end, I tend to believe that he was a violent thug who did not know the meaning of "no".

- Carl

[Hersh2000]

As I'm new to this board, are you a policeman, if I'm understanding this correctly. I'm not being sarcastic, but if some woman came to your department and thought some guy is secretly taping women and/or her having sex, but she's brought you no proof, is your department really going to pursue this? On the other hand, if someone is putting these tapes on the internet, that's a different story.

Also out of curiosity, and I'm not saying you're wrong, can you give an example of a case of someone being charged with rape for having consentual sex with a drunken woman as opposed to someone who was drugged. I've never even seen that scenario on any TV show. About the most unusual episode I've ever seen on TV was about 20 years ago, I forget the show, where a woman wanted to have sex with a man, they were naked on bed and just before they were about to have intercourse, she changed her mind but he went ahead anyway. On the TV episode, he was found guilty of rape. I never heard of drunken consensual sex being a crime though. Again, I think rape is a vile crime but I just find too many gray areas the way the law is written which is why I'm curious about the law.

[cdwjava]

As I'm new to this board, are you a policeman, if I'm understanding this correctly. I'm not being sarcastic, but if some woman came to your department and thought some guy is secretly taping women and/or her having sex, but she's brought you no proof, is your department really going to pursue this? On the other hand, if someone is putting these tapes on the internet, that's a different story.

Without proof, there won't be much we could do absent an admission by the perpetrator. But, that is not where we get the info. It usually comes as a result of a third party coming across it ... friend or family member, computer repair person, etc. The last one we had came from a family friend who was helping a friend re-install Windows.

I don't recall ANY coming to us from a victim guessing that there had been a tape made of their encounter without some admission by the suspect to that person.

Also out of curiosity, and I'm not saying you're wrong, can you give an example of a case of someone being charged with rape for having consentual sex with a drunken woman as opposed to someone who was drugged.

Plenty.

Instead of going through a litany of criminal investigations, here is what the law says:

Rape (Pen. Code, § 261) Felony

"Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following circumstances:

"(1) Where a person is incapable, because of a mental disorder or developmental or physical disability, of giving legal consent, and this is known or reasonably should be known to the person committing the act . . . .

"(2) Where it is accomplished against a person's will by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury on the person of another."

Note: It is now settled that, even following initial sexual penetration, a "forcible rape occurs when, during apparently consensual intercourse, the victim expresses an objection and attempts to stop the act and the defendant forcibly continues despite the objection." (John Z. (2003) 29 Cal.4th 756.)

Note: Barnes (1986) 42 Cal.3d 284 points out that actual, physical resistance is not necessary for a forcible rape conviction.

"(3) Where a person is prevented from resisting by any intoxicating or anaesthetic substance, or any controlled substance, and this condition was known, or reasonably should have been known by the accused.

"(4) Where a person is at the time unconscious of the nature of the act, and this is known to the accused. . . .

The highlighted element occurs with some regularity in college communities, and while often difficult to prove, they CAN and ARE prosecuted when there are witnesses or evidence.

I've never even seen that scenario on any TV show.

Common scenarios do not make compelling television drama. Neither do accurate depictions of criminal investigations. CSI, in particular, is notorious for over-doing everything!

About the most unusual episode I've ever seen on TV was about 20 years ago, I forget the show, where a woman wanted to have sex with a man, they were naked on bed and just before they were about to have intercourse, she changed her mind but he went ahead anyway. On the TV episode, he was found guilty of rape.

And that is rape.

Television is designed to entertain, not to educate. Most investigations by the police take time, and are boring. They are neither dramatic nor compelling, and the real investigation would be rather dry and boring. Most real crime tends to make poor prime time television.

I never heard of drunken consensual sex being a crime though.

I could probably come up with dozens of crimes that you had never seen on TV but that happen with some regularity in real life.

Again, I think rape is a vile crime but I just find too many gray areas the way the law is written which is why I'm curious about the law.

I don't see that it's gray. "No" means don't do it ... if in doubt about the age or the sobriety of the other party, then don't do it. It's really not all that tough.

- Carl

[Hersh2000]

Well if nothing else, like I said, I actually find the act vile itself but I also find false rape accusations just as vile, I've totally learned about consentual sex when somebody is intoxicated, being considered rape. Again, I'm surprised that this is not publicized in high school and to a lesser degree in college. I also don't understand what is to prevent every woman who is drunk and has sex from charging another man with rape. I agree no means no but to me there are still gray areas. Like if a woman in the middle of the act says no, the guy is just suppose to stop immediately? Taking it to another extreme, the woman is on top and the guy says no and the woman keeps going. Technically under this definition its still rape too. I really am surprised they don't educate people more about the stuff about sex with an intoxicated person being rape.

Oh as an aside, my post did not say I was going to advertise using camcorders as a defense against rape but I was thinking of doing that, there is a difference. Based on the majority of answers here, it does not seem wise because the majority of opinions is, that's what you get for having casual sex with someone you don't know.

In regards to the guy saying both of you should sign a paper, well besides coming off creepy to the woman, that could easily be invalidated by a woman then saying she changed her mind or even saying she signed it under duress or a threat.

[cdwjava]

Well if nothing else, like I said, I actually find the act vile itself but I also find false rape accusations just as vile,

Of course. But unless someone is engaging in practices that leave them open to the accusation, why will they feel the need to take such steps to protect themself?

From personal experience, a person taping their sex act is NOT doing it to protect against false accusation - they do it for a record of their conquest or for voyeuristic pleasures.

I've totally learned about consentual sex when somebody is intoxicated, being considered rape. Again, I'm surprised that this is not publicized in high school and to a lesser degree in college.

It is. Maybe you just didn't hear about it. We don't always open our ears when we should.

I also don't understand what is to prevent every woman who is drunk and has sex from charging another man with rape.

Because having a few drinks is not the same as being incapable of granting consent. One has to be pretty drunk. And many accusations are dismissed as being unable to be proven, or, as being 'regret" rape ... in other words, the "victim" has too many drinks, but is not obviously sloshed beyond reason, and engages in activity they regret later.

Alcohol is the single greatest substance for removing inhibitions ... it's also why we find it used as chemical courage in a majority of suicides and homicides.

I agree no means no but to me there are still gray areas. Like if a woman in the middle of the act says no, the guy is just suppose to stop immediately?

Uh ... yeah. That's it exactly.

Not a gray area at all.

Then there is the Tyson and basketball types that believe that when a girl says "no" she "really means, yes."

Taking it to another extreme, the woman is on top and the guy says no and the woman keeps going. Technically under this definition its still rape too.

Sure. But I have NEVER heard of THAT being reported.

I really am surprised they don't educate people more about the stuff about sex with an intoxicated person being rape.

I can't think of anyone who doesn't have at least SOME idea about it. I talk to high schoolers, and even they get it.

In regards to the guy saying both of you should sign a paper, well besides coming off creepy to the woman, that could easily be invalidated by a woman then saying she changed her mind or even saying she signed it under duress or a threat.

There ARE such documents out there. And a dozen or so years ago, these documents WERE on the bedstands of some swingers.

- Carl

[LawResearcherMissy]

Quote:
Taking it to another extreme, the woman is on top and the guy says no and the woman keeps going. Technically under this definition its still rape too.

Sure. But I have NEVER heard of THAT being reported.

I have. I spent 10 years doing rape crisis counseling, and about 1 in 100 cases we saw were cases of female aggression. One poor fella was so humiliated because his attacker tied him up and - not to put too fine a point on it - rode him like she was going someplace.

It happens a bit more often than that, according to the National Crime Victimization Survey, but we only saw a handful of such cases.

[cdwjava]

I have. I spent 10 years doing rape crisis counseling, and about 1 in 100 cases we saw were cases of female aggression. One poor fella was so humiliated because his attacker tied him up and - not to put too fine a point on it - rode him like she was going someplace.

Victims of B&D I have heard of (never had one, but I have known of them reported), but have yet to see a guy unrestrained and without threats get ridden like Seattle Slough and report it.

Interesting.

- Carl

[cyjeff]

In regards to the guy saying both of you should sign a paper, well besides coming off creepy to the woman, that could easily be invalidated by a woman then saying she changed her mind or even saying she signed it under duress or a threat.

You mean as opposed to "Now, if we look back at the slo mo instant replay"?

By the way, women are convicted of raping men all the time... or haven't you been paying attention to the "teachers doing pupils" thing?

[cyjeff]

Victims of B&D I have heard of (never had one, but I have known of them reported), but have yet to see a guy unrestrained and without threats get ridden like Seattle Slough and report it.

Interesting.

- Carl

I think you were thinking of Seattle Slew... Seattle Slough is a great place to get a good cuppa chowder.

[cdwjava]

I think you were thinking of Seattle Slew... Seattle Slough is a great place to get a good cuppa chowder.

I KNEW I shoulda Googled the name first!

- Carl