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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    3

    Thumbs down Regulations, Licensing and the Right to Conduct Legal Business

    My question involves civil rights in the State of: California

    I have always wanted to open up a small poker club and restaurant. Poker is legal in California, by legal decree going back many years -- poker is considered a "game of skill." And it is okay to place wagers.

    So a lot of poker clubs sprang up in certain cities in California, especially in the city of Gardena California (and why Gardena I have no idea).

    I used to play poker a lot, where the clubs had tables that sat 8 people, and the players would shuffle the cards themselves, and deal themselves, and it was really quite fun. Moreover, the house only charged a nominal fee to sit at the tables, proportional to the stakes. At the $1-2 tables it was $2 per hour. At the $2-4 tables the fee was $4 per hour, etc. Basically, at the $1-2 tables (where I played the most) the house only took in $16 per hour (total from all 8 players).

    Then comes the advent of the "house dealer," and the "pot rake," and no players can really win at the game any more, only the house and the dealer wins. Between the pot rake and the tips given to the house dealer the house is taking over $100 per hour (conservatively) from even the low stake tables (and much more than that from the high stakes tables). Franky, I am surprised that anyone would be stupid enough to continue to play poker knowing they will only come out a loser (e.g. sit at the table for 4 hours and $400 or more is going to the house -- and that money came from the players pockets).

    I long for the good old days of poker, like the way they used to play it in Gardena before the advent of the "house dealer" and the "house rake."

    Thus I want to start a poker club for those who just want to get to some tables and compete with their fellow lovers of poker. I want to recreate that "deal-em' yourself" way of playing the game -- at least for the low stakes tables.

    BUT HERE IS THE PROBLEM: The state of California has created a "poker commission." The poker commission has put a freeze on the issuance of any new "poker club licenses." (But before I go on; you might have heard about Larry Flint attempting to win the right to do casino style gambling in California, please do not confuse this issue with that issue -- totally different.) Thus, I cannot start a poker club.

    What is the "rational basis" for this "freeze?"

    They tell us that poker is detrimental to the welfare of the People of California so they do limit the number of poker clubs, by enforcing a "freeze" on the issuance of poker club licenses...

    ... sounds like a load of B.S. to me. How bout' to you?

    Without going on about the "irrationality" of the reasoning behind the "freeze" I would like to ask you good folks about any apparent "VIOLATIONS" of my "RIGHT" to conduct an otherwise lawful business practice? I would also like to ask you to consider the "CONSTITUTIONALITY" of this discriminatory "freeze" in terms of "EQUAL TREATMENT" -- where some are provided with a monopoly on the otherwise lawful business of running a poker club (not a casino) but others have absolutely not opportunity to do that now!!! And this is for the "protection" of the people of California? (Quite obviously, the California commission on gambling is playing the role of the "morality police" for the people of California -- which I personally don't like very much as a person who believes in freedom. Actually, I don't believe that is the real reason for the "freeze" at all. I really believe that these people on the gambling commission are secretly working for the present poker club owners, and some sort of "pact" was created between the poker club owners to stop others from competing with them, and so the "freeze" was invented so that they could monopolize the poker business in California.)

    BASICALLY; how would you approach this if you wanted to start your own small poker club? How would you overcome this phony "freeze" and all the bureaucracy? I realize that all the commission probably needs is a "rational basis," but I really don't even see any good statement of a "rational basis."

    Comments please!!!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Toledo, OH
    Posts
    16,307

    Default Re: California, Right to Conduct Legal Business?

    How would you overcome this phony "freeze" and all the bureaucracy?
    I'd hire an attorney and be prepared to lose my shirt, I suppose.

    You don't have any inherent right to open a poker club any more than I have any inherent right to open a bar - both can be done, but there are (often dumb) regulations that must be complied with.

    I can't find any rational basis for restricting sale of booze on Sundays either (someone's superstition about cosmic punishment is not rational), but I'm stuck with that just like you're stuck with a freeze on poker club licensing.

    If you want to Fight The Man, you need an attorney. Or a pile of them. There's nothing a bunch of duffers can do for you.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    9,096

    Default Re: California, Right to Conduct Legal Business?

    Large political donations to the appropriate campaigns couldn't hurt either.

    I agree with Missy, though.

    You would fight the same battle opening, say, a strip club....

    The restriction of these "houses of sin" make great campaign fodder during an election year.

    I really don't think you have the proverbial snowball's chance....

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: California, Right to Conduct Legal Business?

    Responding to "Missy"

    Actually, Missy, I believe I DO have an inherent right to the "liberty" to conduct an "otherwise lawful business practice." And as poker IS an "otherwise lawful business practice" it would seem at the very least a "rational basis" is needed for the "freeze" and the effective grant of the monopoly on poker to the existing clubs. (Indeed, something more than a mere "rational basis" might even be needed, as playing poker might well be viewed as a form of "expression," and it is certainly a consumer issue here, that the consumers of poker activity fun can have more opportunities and places to go out and do their poker "thing.")


    Responding to "cyjeff"

    The strip club example is a "zoning law" thing, where it seems that there must be at least some places where strip clubs are let operate. Is that not right? (After all, I cannot think of anyplace where the majority of voters would vote to ban a strip club -- and that is where our constitutional rights come in, so that those who love stripping can "do their thing." But my point is that somewhere in this state you COULD open up a strip joint if you wanted to, that is, the state must make way for you to run your strip club somehwere -- and probably someplace fairly reasonable to do so, not way out in the desert or some other out of the way place. Under this unconstitutional "poker club freeze" I cannot open up that small poker club anywhere in the state! Do you see the distinct difference in issues here?)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,437

    Default Re: California, Right to Conduct Legal Business?

    Freeman: This is covered by the Golden Rule.

    He who hath the gold maketh the rules.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    9,096

    Default Re: California, Right to Conduct Legal Business?

    Quote Quoting Freeman
    View Post
    Responding to "cyjeff"

    The strip club example is a "zoning law" thing, where it seems that there must be at least some places where strip clubs are let operate. Is that not right? (After all, I cannot think of anyplace where the majority of voters would vote to ban a strip club -- and that is where our constitutional rights come in, so that those who love stripping can "do their thing." But my point is that somewhere in this state you COULD open up a strip joint if you wanted to, that is, the state must make way for you to run your strip club somehwere -- and probably someplace fairly reasonable to do so, not way out in the desert or some other out of the way place. Under this unconstitutional "poker club freeze" I cannot open up that small poker club anywhere in the state! Do you see the distinct difference in issues here?)
    Are you saying that the right to strip is protected by constitutional priviledge?

    It is not. And the exact zoning for such clubs (not within 100ft of a church or something) is exactly that.

    The state does not HAVE to let you open any business, theoretically.

    Here in Georgia, a seller of "marital aids" and other adult doo dads was just denied a business license based upon the items that he sold.

    It was a long drawn out case... the constitutional point was waved around quite a bit.

    And the retailer lost. Ultimately, it was decided that local governments have the right and responsibility to uphold that municipality's image and value.

    You would have much the same fight.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: California, Right to Conduct Legal Business?

    In response to "cyjeff"

    I think you are missing a nuance here, and a significant one.

    Hear me out.

    This is not a "zoning" issue, this is a statewide ban on an already legally declared LEGAL ACTIVITY. Why are some allowed to conduct the business and others not allowed to conduct it ANYWHERE! NOT EVEN IN THE DESERT!

    If you think about it I think you will see my point, and that I am making a different point.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    9,096

    Default Re: California, Right to Conduct Legal Business?

    Now hear me out.

    You keep trying to insist you have a right to open a poker parlor because you wish to.

    As you have found, there is much more to it than that.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Toledo, OH
    Posts
    16,307

    Default Re: California, Right to Conduct Legal Business?

    "I believe I can" is not the same as "The law says I can."

    Again, if you want to Fight The Man, get a lawyer. But pay close attention to Judge's Golden Rule.

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