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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Default Hiring Ex-Felons

    And, as an employer, I can tell you that a felony will cause any other applicant to look good in comparison.

    I know you don't want to hear this, but a felony is like luggage. You carry it around with you the rest of your life... and you will always be judged against it.

    Let me ask you this. I have never committed a felony... I have never killed anyone in a car accident, touched a child or committed a robbery.

    Why should I have the same chance as you for a job? You have lived cleanly since you were caught... I have lived cleanly my whole life. Why should we be judged the same?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Discrimination Over A Felony Conviction

    To cyjeff:

    I understand where you are coming from as an employer, but let me ask you this: did you make any mistakes as a kid? Did you drink under age? Borrow your parents car without permission? Fail a test? Get in a fight? Get a speeding ticket? Mistakes are a part of everyones life. How would you like to be judged for the rest of your life for a stupid mistake, an error in judgement that you made years ago?

    You asked why CBG should have the same chance as you for a job. The answer is simple: people make mistakes. And the EEOC Civil Rights Act says something to the effect of employers cannot deny a person employment based only on a criminal conviction unless there is a business justification (i.e. a man convicted of burglary could justifiably not be hired to work for a moving crew, or a cleaning crew).

    People should not be judged soley on their pasts. And fyi, just because your mistakes aren't a matter of public record does not make you any better than someone whose are. Thanks

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Discrimination Over A Felony Conviction

    Please show me the part in the EEOC Civil Rights act that makes criminality a protected class.

    Yes, some states do have labor law around protection for these classes, but it does not exist at a federal level.

    And as for the "haven't you ever made a mistake" argument....

    So, I should PENALIZE all of those applicants that have NOT committed a crime by equalizing their chances with someone that has?

    Don't people that have NEVER committed a crime deserve reward for a life well lived?

    I have hired excons.... even a couple of felons. I would be lying to you if I said I didn't look at their qualifications harder and their references with more detail than the other applicants....

    And, like it or not, the hiring process is ALL about your past... your work history, your criminal record, your prior relationships....

    There is a wave of sentiment on this board (coincidentally, mostly from those convicted of crimes) that prior criminal records should somehow "go away" or that people should be allowed a "do over".

    Welcome to the world.

    Have you figured out yet that one of the reasons that employers hesitate in hiring felons has nothing to do with the crime? It has to do with the simple fact that anyone that doesn't think out their actions before they act may not be a person I want on my payroll. That someone that doesn't think "Wow, I could be making a lifetime decision if I steal this" maybe isn't someone I want working with my customers for far less important stakes.

    You have shown a flaw of character. Point all the fingers you want.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Discrimination Over A Felony Conviction

    Excuse me, but cbg has never committed a felony, a misdemeanor, or even a traffic violation. Jeff was not talking about me, he was referring to the OP.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Discrimination Over A Felony Conviction

    I'm not arguing that that getting away with anything is GOOD, but there's also the really basic element to this in that while ANYONE can "make mistakes", even ones that involve criminal acts, NOT everyone makes the ADDITIONAL mistake of getting caught, much less convicted. Not every employer bothers to do criminal background checks, but for those that DO check on their employees, a felony criminal record says that you did something pretty bad (felony level as opposed to a misdemeanor), you did it either impulsively or at least with poor planning - two highly UNdesireable qualities to most employers (since you got caught), there weren't enough mitigating circumstances to explain it away (since formal charges were brought, not just an arrest), and the state successfully made their case (conviction). Pretty easy for an employer to make a choice I'd think.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Discrimination Over A Felony Conviction

    In truth, automatically disqualifying people who have criminal records from jobs is discriminatory because the practice disproportionately affects African American and Hispanic men.

    Beyond that, the EEOC has ruled repeatedly that covered employers cannot simply bar felons from jobs, but must show that a conviction-based disqualification is justified by "business necessity." The legal test requires employers to examine (1) the job-relatedness of each conviction, (2) the nature of the crime committed, (3) the number of convictions, (4) the facts surrounding each offense, (5) the length of time between the conviction and the employment decision, (6) the person's employment history before and after the conviction, and (7) the applicant's efforts at rehabilitation. According to the EEOC, the job-relatedness inquiry is the most important, and focuses on whether the job position applied for presents an opportunity for the applicant to engage in the same type of misconduct which resulted in the conviction (Bednar, "Employment Law Dilemmas," 11 Utah Bar J. 15 (Dec. 1998)).

    While it might not be illegal or against any federal policies to turn your nose up at an potential employee simply because of their criminal history, it should be. In some cases there are circumstances surrounding a crime that should be taken into account. It should not be an automatic disqualification as it seems to be in so many cases.

    From a sociological perspective, people who are willing to knock a potential employee down because of a criminal past contribute to the cycle that most criminals struggle to get out of. Tell me, a man arrested for selling drugs serves his time, gets out of jail, and tries to get decent work to earn a living half as good as he had it before, well he can't get work because he used to sell drugs. To tell the truth, I would probably hire him because he was in a business that requires him to be smart, quick and have a plan, not to mention upselling, keeping repeat business, staying competitive...the list goes on. I might not care for the product he was selling, but hey i feel the same way about the telemarketers that call my house at dinnertime to sell me a magazine subscription. Back to my point, if he can't get legit work because of his criminal history, what do you think he's going to do to support himself and maybe his family? probably go back to selling drugs. And then it's just a matter of time before he's back in jail. While it's not your responsibility to help these people, don't you feel like maybe you could make a difference?

  7. #7
    panther10758 Guest

    Default Re: Discrimination Over A Felony Conviction

    Is not hiring someone based on their criminal record discrimination? Ye sit is however not all discrimination is illegal! If you want this changed then do as suggested earlier by cbg


    If you want to see the law changed, lobby your elected representatives. Complaining on a message board about how it ought to be won't change anything - your elected officials are the ones who can do that.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Discrimination Over A Felony Conviction

    Quote Quoting eeoc_avocate
    View Post
    In truth, automatically disqualifying people who have criminal records from jobs is discriminatory because the practice disproportionately affects African American and Hispanic men.
    Oh... so I am not discriminating against felons but on the basis of race?

    That may be the most discriminatory and offensive thing I have ever read. Are you saying that if I don't hire felons that only people of color will be effected?

    So only people of color commit crimes? Wow.

    Beyond that, the EEOC has ruled repeatedly that covered employers cannot simply bar felons from jobs, but must show that a conviction-based disqualification is justified by "business necessity." The legal test requires employers to examine (1) the job-relatedness of each conviction, (2) the nature of the crime committed, (3) the number of convictions, (4) the facts surrounding each offense, (5) the length of time between the conviction and the employment decision, (6) the person's employment history before and after the conviction, and (7) the applicant's efforts at rehabilitation. According to the EEOC, the job-relatedness inquiry is the most important, and focuses on whether the job position applied for presents an opportunity for the applicant to engage in the same type of misconduct which resulted in the conviction (Bednar, "Employment Law Dilemmas," 11 Utah Bar J. 15 (Dec. 1998)).
    Still waiting on the statute.

    While it might not be illegal or against any federal policies to turn your nose up at an potential employee simply because of their criminal history, it should be.
    Oh.... so there ISN'T any statute... as you have stated there WAS on at least two instances.

    Now we are going to fall back on the "but there should be" argument. Sorry, there are many things that should be but aren't.

    In some cases there are circumstances surrounding a crime that should be taken into account. It should not be an automatic disqualification as it seems to be in so many cases.
    If the circumstances surrounding the incident weren't enough to find the defendant innocent in a court of law, why should I spend the money and time to do my own independant investigation?

    Who is going to pay me for my time and trouble while I am playing Matlock to make sure that my applicants didn't REALLY mean to burn down that liquor store?

    From a sociological perspective, people who are willing to knock a potential employee down because of a criminal past contribute to the cycle that most criminals struggle to get out of.
    Strange... I thought committing a crime was what started the "cycle"... not my reaction to it.

    This argument of yours is fundamentally flawed. It states that it is MY responsibility to rehabilitate a felon because if I don't, somehow the next crime this person commits is MY fault.

    No. Nice try. The person decided to commit a crime, now that person lives with the fallout.

    I am not Mother Theresa. I am just trying to staff my business. You can staff yours how you want.

    Tell me, a man arrested for selling drugs serves his time, gets out of jail, and tries to get decent work to earn a living half as good as he had it before, well he can't get work because he used to sell drugs.
    Yup... lesson there, huh?

    To tell the truth, I would probably hire him because he was in a business that requires him to be smart, quick and have a plan, not to mention upselling, keeping repeat business, staying competitive...the list goes on.
    Not to mention shooting the competition, the occaisonal drive by and high speed pursuit evasion tactics.

    Anyway, you hire whom you want... and good luck with that.

    I might not care for the product he was selling, but hey i feel the same way about the telemarketers that call my house at dinnertime to sell me a magazine subscription. Back to my point, if he can't get legit work because of his criminal history, what do you think he's going to do to support himself and maybe his family? probably go back to selling drugs. And then it's just a matter of time before he's back in jail. While it's not your responsibility to help these people, don't you feel like maybe you could make a difference?
    Yup. The difference I will make will be not to expose my customers and coworkers to a dangerous environment.

    Are YOU going to pick up my liability if someone that murders as a business tactic is hired and then decides that someone cut in line for coffee?

    Okay... that was a joke... but with a truthful core. If that, say, violent felon is hired by me and ends up beating the poobah out of a coworker, who gets sued, do you think gets sued?

    Again, you are trying to put the burden of the felons future crimes on my shoulders because I didn't "make a difference".... not going to work. Sorry.

    You start a halfway house and send me the address. I will send you all the felon resumes I get. Everyone wins.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Discrimination Over A Felony Conviction

    Quote Quoting eeoc_avocate
    View Post

    .........a man arrested for selling drugs serves his time, gets out of jail, and tries to get decent work to earn a living half as good as he had it before, well he can't get work because he used to sell drugs. To tell the truth, I would probably hire him because he was in a business that requires him to be smart, quick and have a plan, not to mention upselling, keeping repeat business, staying competitive...the list goes on. I might not care for the product he was selling......
    I first had to stop laughing my backside off before I could even steady my fingers enough to pound out a response to this rather ridiculous statement!

    The sorta sad part for me is that there are those that have your attitude and think that it makes some sort of sense. Nothing could be further from the truth!

    So, the corner dealer has "business savvy"? Following your line of thinking then the murderer would pass as a decent C.S.I. Hey, they know what to look for! Or the pedophile would make a great daycare operator! Who else knows what kids need! Or I should hire "reformed" shoplifters to staff my LP team! After all, who knows how to catch a thief better than another one!

    I'll tell ya what, I'm a pretty decent fisherman, but I breathe air and can't swim that well. AND, I'm a rather adept hunter but I do not sport antlers or a cute furry white butt. SO HOW DO I DO IT???

    I'll tell ya how! By THINKING ahead of time some sort of random thought like, "What is gonna happen if I do this?"

    LIKE:

    What's gonna happen if I drink til I can't see straight then blast down the highway in my car?

    What's gonna happen if I get busted selling drugs? I've been making all the "good" money! Tax free!!! I support all manner of off-shoot enterprises like junkies that do all manner of crime to get the 'means' to get their fix! I support a lot of foriegn "businessmen" who run their drug production with ruthless abandon!

    GOOD GAWD! HOW AM I GONNA LIVE AFTER I GET OUT OF JAIL FOR....insert crime here...!!!!

    Well shoot, I reckon I am just one of the vast majority that happened to think about the consequences of my actions beforehand instead of just reacting to the moment!

    So sorry about your "luck" if you did not!!!!!!!!!!!!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    Default Re: Discrimination Over A Felony Conviction

    Souperdave, i suggest you read this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Abagnale_Jr.

    I know a guy who's assault (a bar fight) conviction helped land him a job on some big-shots personal security staff. I see the logic in this. I sure wouldn't hire somebody unless I knew they were capable of defending my life at ALL cost.

    I'm not so sure about a ex-druggie making a great business man... It's possible though!

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