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  1. #11
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    Jul 2006
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    Default Re: Unlawful Stop

    Quote Quoting usedbranflakes
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    The police officer could have written "officer's notes" that your attorney doesn't get to see. The officer gets to use these in court. The officer could have used a radar gun without memory, but could not have locked the speed and could have had it wiped when they pulled in range of you after banging the U-turn. The officer could lie. It happens with some frequency and is known in cop circles (and my CJ studies) as testilying; an officer never lies in the eyes of the court but will brag about it to their close friends.

    It's worth it to talk to the attorney to get the stop thrown out and the fruits of the stop thrown out.
    Oh.

    Brother.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    811

    Default Re: Unlawful Stop

    Carl -

    I can count on two hands the time I have seen the stop thrown out; a good defense attorney and a questionable stop can have them thrown out. A judge is human, too and some judges are more lenient than others. Exceptions are the new DUI courts being instituted in counties with either high arrest rates or high acquittal rates at trial. Mecklenberg and Wake County went from a 20% conviction rate to a 65% conviction rate after putting in a DUI court with tough judges. I tried to dig up the article but could not.

    You know (or should know) that I have a world of respect for you and what you do. You should also know that I think you are a rarity amongst officers and supervisors. That's probably why you are as high up the ladder and training future officers. Thanks for what you do.

    I don't say this out of disrespect towards you, but comment against the handfulls of officers that make their peers look bad.

    Who will ever brag about lying in court to their supervisor? The cop circles that you run in see you as a leader and a supervisor. Maybe I misunderstood the term when in my basic policing class. I used the interweb to double-check my memory of the term; it seems that the Internet (which can be wrong) and the Wikipedia volunteers attribute it to police slang for testifying against a defendant.

    Quote Quoting Wikipedia
    Testilying is police slang for the practice of giving false testimony against a defendant in a criminal trial, typically for the purpose of "making a stronger case" against someone they believe to be guilty, although it may also be for the purpose of framing an innocent defendant.

    In three cases in Georgia alone, where I saw an officer actually get caught lying, the judge dismissed the case even though he was "the Policeman's judge." Usually he would delay the case 6 months and tell the defendant that if she (or he) didn't get in any more trouble he would dismiss the case against her if it was fine with the officer.

    In NC I sat through days of cases every other month, waiting for mine to be tried. I liked taking the Monday and Tuesday off, believe it or not. I saw officers and defendants get caught lying. The judge said nothing* when the officer got caught but reminded the defendant he was under oath or would sometimes threaten perjury. I have also seen bail raised because a defendant doesn't listen to his attorney; truth or not, what comes out of their mouth is SCARY sometimes! The truth will put that person behind bars, no testilying required.

    *The funny thing was in one of the trials the defense counsel brought up the fact that the officer's report and the defendant were very similar except for one fact. ...but the officer's testimony was off 180 degrees. When the judge called the counsel, police officer, and prosecutor (skinny little blonde) to the bench the skinny little blonde got nervous. Apparently the officer's notes were for the wrong case and the officer had testified that he was "testifying from vivid memory of the arrest; it was one of those arrests that sticks in your mind when working in LE." He testified that he was not using notes and didn't need notes to refresh his memory. Guess he was wrong. The judge set aside the case and suggested the officer get the right set of notes and show up tomorrow. Fortunately, for the skinny DA it was a bench trial and not a jury trial.

    I do think that testilying is wrong, but it is a necessary evil.

    I played basketball (tried to play?), softball, and hockey on police leagues and police sponsored leagues. ...and the officers bragged on the court and in the rink about the things they did, got away with, and the things they said in court. In fact, it was like a bunch of 20 and 30-somethings bragging to their fraternity brothers.

    My circle is now small...
    Needless to say, when one has a DUI there are not many departments that will take you on even for office positions. My ex-wife still works for the police department but she never brags, though she does talk about the types of calls she gets. She is 100% by the book now. That having been said, my circle of friends is not as officer-heavy as it once was.

    The smartass in me:

    Police also never testily and abuse authority.
    Dead men tell no tales, but men who live file lawsuits and we know of quite a few. Though there are a few that should have been shot instead of beaten...but that's my not so Humble Opinion.
    ...and the poor little ederly lady from one of my home towns "Atlanta" that was killed had the officer get in a heap of trouble for testilying.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    811

    Default Re: Unlawful Stop

    Quote Quoting seniorjudge
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    Oh.

    Brother.
    LMAO!

    Sometimes it is a legitimate defense. The person is guilty as hell, but the proper procedure was not followed. We might have less rights now than we did 40 years ago, but the defendant still has rights.
    ...the right to shut up should be provided for them with duct tape.

    Don't worry, I saw in the news where the Minority Report wall technology was just released by several different colleges. ...now only if we can get some precogs and a laser engraver for pool balls.

  4. #14
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    Sep 2005
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    Default Re: Unlawful Stop

    Quote Quoting usedbranflakes
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    I can count on two hands the time I have seen the stop thrown out;
    I don't think I can count on one hand the number I am aware of. Most stops are not questionable, and those that are tossed tend to be because the PC was for something mistaken such as an out of state vehicle with no front plate (when the state does not issue such plates) or for a speed violation that was not (i.e. stopping someone for 35 in a 25 when the limit was actually posted at 25, etc.

    Mecklenberg and Wake County went from a 20% conviction rate to a 65% conviction rate after putting in a DUI court with tough judges. I tried to dig up the article but could not.
    I don't think we have dedicated DUI courts anywhere out here. But, there are counties that have dedicated vertical prosecution programs for DUI just as they have for DV and even drugs.

    You know (or should know) that I have a world of respect for you and what you do. You should also know that I think you are a rarity amongst officers and supervisors. That's probably why you are as high up the ladder and training future officers. Thanks for what you do.
    I appreciate that. But, I don't think I am as much an anomaly as you think I might be.

    Though my wife is encouraging a move out of CA ... any jobs in small towns or counties in NC?

    Who will ever brag about lying in court to their supervisor? The cop circles that you run in see you as a leader and a supervisor.
    Even before I was a supervisor, I never heard any such bragging. Likewise, I can't imagine any one I know accepting such comments and letting them go! Not to take action on such an admission by a peer could make the officer hearing the comments just as culpable both legally and morally.

    Maybe I misunderstood the term when in my basic policing class. I used the interweb to double-check my memory of the term; it seems that the Internet (which can be wrong) and the Wikipedia volunteers attribute it to police slang for testifying against a defendant.
    And, of course, Wikipedia is created by people who submit such things. There are many terms for many things that are merely perceptions and not necessarily fact. The ONLY place I have ever heard the term applied to police is by people who tend to hold the cops in disrespect - it is certainly not something taught or encouraged in any law enforcement circles I am aware of.

    In three cases in Georgia alone, where I saw an officer actually get caught lying, the judge dismissed the case even though he was "the Policeman's judge."
    In those instances where an officer is caught in a suspected lie out here, the officer's career is often done. Or, at the very best, the DA won't take his or her cases to trial as even the DA can't see the officer as credible. These rare instances seem to most commonly involve DUIs and in drug cases for some reason, and most have to do with cloned observations or leaving out the circumstances surrounding a search of a suspect detained (for drugs).

    Apparently the officer's notes were for the wrong case and the officer had testified that he was "testifying from vivid memory of the arrest; it was one of those arrests that sticks in your mind when working in LE." He testified that he was not using notes and didn't need notes to refresh his memory. Guess he was wrong.
    Being wrong - even egregiously so - is not the same as lying. I find it scary that he would be SO far off, but it is still not the same as lying.

    I do think that testilying is wrong, but it is a necessary evil.
    I don't think it is necessary at all. We can make a case on the truth - no need to make up stuff.

    I played basketball (tried to play?), softball, and hockey on police leagues and police sponsored leagues. ...and the officers bragged on the court and in the rink about the things they did, got away with, and the things they said in court. In fact, it was like a bunch of 20 and 30-somethings bragging to their fraternity brothers.
    Scary thought ... maybe I don't want to move out there.

    of course, remember the allegations that Mark Fuhrman supposedly confessed to a Hollywood writer and a therapist about? About his racial bias and his planting evidence to frame defendants? They looked into these allegations and found them all to be false - he lied. One was to try to get a job in Hollywood and the other was to try and get some kind of stress retirement, or some such thing (not a noble series of events, but certainly no proof he did anything unlawful of the nature he was accused at all).

    That having been said, my circle of friends is not as officer-heavy as it once was.
    Oddly, my circle of friends has almost always been officer-light. The people who I spend time with are by-and-large, NOT cops. They tend to be people who I know through use sports or community activities - or from years past - and not from local cop circles.


    - Carl
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    811

    Default Re: Unlawful Stop

    Thanks for the reply.

    Obviously I have to post in defense of my testilying bit. I am officer-neutral, but I do side on constitutional rights and rights to a fair trial so sometimes I seem anti-officer or anti-defendant. If an officer lies in court or a defendant lies in court then I believe that both should get a few nights in jail and a 30 day sentence, with most of that suspended, and the $500 fine. It doesn't happen that way...
    Anyhoo, in support of my posting (and to really drive this thread OT)...

    http://www.wvrecord.com/news/180999-...m-state-police
    This is a crime lab story from when I spent time at the the WV State Police barracks; I was not a sworn LEO, but was a student. Trooper Fred Zain loved to testily, or so it would seem.
    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pshell/gammag...ing-in-ny.html
    http://www.nacdl.org/PUBLIC/ABUSE/CR000007.htm
    http://www.officer.com/online/articl...ion=1&id=40175
    In seeing how this is East Coast and my officer stories are all EC based, and Fuirman was lying about testilying, and most of the labs that perjured, maybe testilying is just an issue on the East Coast.


    If you are looking for a move to NC I would highly suggest looking at some of the counties that have really tough DUI programs. Your experience and background is most excellent, best I can tell on the posts. The NC SHP has a lot of positions as does Wake County and Mecklenberg County. If you want an easier life I highly suggest Wilmington, NC and the New Hanover County area. It's large enough to be comfortable, but small enough to relax in.

    For a real treat I would highly suggest Jacksonville, FL, Brunswick County, GA and Savannah/Chatham County, GA. They are all nice cities though the pay is a bit lower than most officers expect in Savannah and GA. Chief Adams was the best chief we had for Savannah but he retired a few years after cleaning up the city. In fact, the new CoP for them is Chief Michael Berkow from Los Angeles.

    I dated a officer in FL (JAX and Orlando) and that was a pretty cush job. She got to wear shorts and a polo though her BA needed Febrezed every few days when she wore it. It got to sit out with my hockey gear, which smelled a lot worse.

    Orlando is pretty nice and the officers there are the most professional and most helpful people that I have ever met. I never heard a lick of testilying or heard any of the officers there joke about lying in court, though one of my friends down there was a corrections officer and did brag about being mean to some of the inmates. It was within the letter of the law and I prayed that he would not run into them when we were out together.

    I am not on the East Coast right now, but should return out there within the next few months.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    Default Re: Unlawful Stop

    Well, I have long heard the term, but never from cops (unless turning it around to what suspects and their families/friends do on the stand), so I suspect it's a perspective issue.

    As for moving out east, we're looking at the possibility of a small town or county - someplace where I don't necessarily have to start off as a patrolman (hence I am searching for positions hiring outside for sergeants or higher). I'm a tad old to start a new career in a new place completely at the bottom!

    And we WILL be out in the east in July. We'll be in Philly on July 5th, and will be traveling down the east coast some time after that then cutting west from the Carolinas or maybe Georgia and returning home passing through Texas by the end of that month.

    - Carl
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Southeast USA
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Unlawful Stop

    What fantasy cop land do you live in Carl. Cops lie all the time, especially Narcotics division. They lie to get confessions, they lie to get entry, they lie to get co-suspects against one another, they lie about having never said "ni__er"

    The ENTIRE drug task force for the county seat where I live has been indited on a variety of drug, robberry, and character charges, 9 officers so far...

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Unlawful Stop

    Quote Quoting Advocateless
    View Post
    What fantasy cop land do you live in Carl. Cops lie all the time, especially Narcotics division. They lie to get confessions, they lie to get entry, they lie to get co-suspects against one another, they lie about having never said "ni__er"

    The ENTIRE drug task force for the county seat where I live has been indited on a variety of drug, robberry, and character charges, 9 officers so far...
    Anyone can be indicted ... the question is, how many will be convicted? And if they did the crimes they are accused of, I hope they are hung out to dry.

    I don't know where you live and I obviously cannot speak for every cop everywhere and I have never made any such claim. My experience (which is extensive) is that there is no need to lie in court or on reports to get the job done and that the overwhelming majority of officers do not find it necessary to perjure themselves in any way.

    We can legally lie about a number of things - testimony is not among them. Under many circumstances, a lie to a suspect is perfectly lawful. Of course we use that as a tool.

    I venture a guess that I know far more cops than you do and have been in far more "inner circles" and sanctums than you have, and lying is not something bragged about nor encouraged anywhere. If it is, it is whispered among some very corrupt subsets of the entire profession in places that I am glad I will never work or live.

    - Carl
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    38,530

    Default Re: Unlawful Stop

    hey Carl, we may some openings around here.

    the pay isn;t so good but there are lot's of cute girls at Notre Dame.

    http://www.wsbt.com/news/9319102.html

    and although the largest earthquake in the contiguous US was about 500 miles from here, we haven;t had anything other than real small temblors in a long time (except for the one earlier this year).

    You will have to learn how to duck tornadoes though.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MNM8115BP6.DTL

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Unlawful Stop

    Quote Quoting jk
    View Post
    hey Carl, we may some openings around here.

    the pay isn;t so good but there are lot's of cute girls at Notre Dame.

    http://www.wsbt.com/news/9319102.html
    Well, my wife doesn't allow me to look ... too hard, anyway. And the poverty status of Roseland seems to be beyond my comfort factor.

    - Carl
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

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