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  1. #1
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    Default Re: Anesthesia Given Without Consent And Against Patient's Will

    deepsleep, 100 % agree.... You can not tell the pilot how to fly the plane. Just get me there safely. I can not tell you how many patients want to be awake , no sedative etc. They get in the OR, have a panick attack, the surgeon freaks out, and your care just went down the drain. Believe me, there has been more suits for patients that "remembered everything " than those claiming a suit because you can't remember anything. Come on, think about it.. By the way, I have never met any patient that can tolerate a knee surgery awake and under local, the nurses and surgeons will refuse to do it now days ..

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Anesthesia Given Without Consent And Against Patient's Will

    From the other side of the table....

    Let's pretend, for just a second, that the doctors and nurses performing surgery on my person are working for me. You know... where I pay for a service and expertise and, crazy I know, think I have something to say about a procedure that I am not only paying a tremendous amount of money for but also a procedure that is HAPPENING TO MY PERSON.

    To you, I am just another piece of meat to get through before your dinner with the Chief of Surgery. Me, this is a situation where a screw up costs considerable more than an enhanced insurance payment.

    Why don't we start with the same level of customer service that you demand from the highly trained mechanic that is fixing your Beemer and work backward?

    So, let's drop the tin-god attitude and pretend that I have more than a working brain cell and a paid up insurance plan and make me a part of the process rather than just another idiot that doesn't know enough to actually contribute to his/her own care.

    Throw all the terms around that you want... yes, your education in this area is vastly superior to my own. That doesn't mean that you are a good doctor... and it certainly doesn't give you the right to discount my opinion as to my care.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Anesthesia Given Without Consent And Against Patient's Will

    With this reasoning, there is really no justifiable reason for the person, you, to ask the surgeon, defendant in your world, to perform the procedure. Your reasoning dictates that you, the patient, know more about knee surgery than the surgeon, defendant. You, the patient , know more about anesthesia than the anesthesiologist, defendant. Therefore, under deductive reasoning , it would be safer for you, the patient , to fix your own knee without anesthesia , as clearly stated. Great, you can do this in the garage on the weekend and invite your friends for cocktails afterwards!!!!!!

    Let's pretend, for just a second, that the doctors and nurses performing surgery on my person are working for me. You know... where I pay for a service and expertise and, crazy I know, think I have something to say about a procedure that I am not only paying a tremendous amount of money for but also a procedure that is HAPPENING TO MY PERSON.

    To you, I am just another piece of meat to get through before your dinner with the Chief of Surgery. Me, this is a situation where a screw up costs considerable more than an enhanced insurance payment.

    Why don't we start with the same level of customer service that you demand from the highly trained mechanic that is fixing your Beemer and work backward?

    So, let's drop the tin-god attitude and pretend that I have more than a working brain cell and a paid up insurance plan and make me a part of the process rather than just another idiot that doesn't know enough to actually contribute to his/her own care.

    Throw all the terms around that you want... yes, your education in this area is vastly superior to my own. That doesn't mean that you are a good doctor... and it certainly doesn't give you the right to discount my opinion as to my care.[/QUOTE]

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Anesthesia Given Without Consent And Against Patient's Will

    Quote Quoting Vincent B
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    With this reasoning, there is really no justifiable reason for the person, you, to ask the surgeon, defendant in your world, to perform the procedure. Your reasoning dictates that you, the patient, know more about knee surgery than the surgeon, defendant. You, the patient , know more about anesthesia than the anesthesiologist, defendant. Therefore, under deductive reasoning , it would be safer for you, the patient , to fix your own knee without anesthesia , as clearly stated. Great, you can do this in the garage on the weekend and invite your friends for cocktails afterwards!!!!!!
    That's not what I said... and you know it.

    I don't claim to be any more of an expert on anatomy and pharmacy than you claim to be an archeologist.

    However, to ask me, as you have done TWICE now, to simply say, "Doc, you put me under... let me know what you did when we are done" is ridiculous.

    I know, I know... medicine would be so much easier without all those darned patients getting in the way.

    The moment you forget that the meat you are working on is a living breathing entity with as much or more passion for life than you do is the day you should go ahead and become a coroner.

    You, yourself, pay for highly skilled talent. You cannot, for instance, run network cables, put in crown moldings, plumb a new shoot off an existing line or rework your transmission. However, you believe that you should be told what is being done, why it is being done and what the other options are. You expect, since you are PAYING FOR THE SERVICES, to be listened to.

    Let's say that you hire me to rework your electrical systems in your home. When you come to see my work for the final signoff, you find I have placed all of the outlets in your brand new media room against the opposite wall from where you wanted them.

    Would you just accept your excuse of "well, I know better than you do and, further, you shouldn't even pretend to give imput"? Or, instead, would you refuse to pay up to and unless the damage was corrected to what you wanted in the first place?

    Now, reality check. You are peeved because Ferris Bueller's Day Off wouldn't benefit completely from the surround sound. I, and the OP, are betting our LIVES you get it right.

    Even a 1% margin of error means my kids grow up without a father... that I miss seeing them become the people they are going to be. And you want me to blindly ignore any risks because you decided it was too difficult to explain them to me?

    Wow. And you got into this line of work because you love helping people, right?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Anesthesia Given Without Consent And Against Patient's Will

    Quote Quoting cyjeff
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    From the other side of the table....

    Let's pretend, for just a second, that the doctors and nurses performing surgery on my person are working for me. You know... where I pay for a service and expertise and, crazy I know, think I have something to say about a procedure that I am not only paying a tremendous amount of money for but also a procedure that is HAPPENING TO MY PERSON.

    To you, I am just another piece of meat to get through before your dinner with the Chief of Surgery. Me, this is a situation where a screw up costs considerable more than an enhanced insurance payment.

    Why don't we start with the same level of customer service that you demand from the highly trained mechanic that is fixing your Beemer and work backward?

    So, let's drop the tin-god attitude and pretend that I have more than a working brain cell and a paid up insurance plan and make me a part of the process rather than just another idiot that doesn't know enough to actually contribute to his/her own care.

    Throw all the terms around that you want... yes, your education in this area is vastly superior to my own. That doesn't mean that you are a good doctor... and it certainly doesn't give you the right to discount my opinion as to my care.
    Well said!

  6. #6
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    Angry Re: Anesthesia Given Without Consent And Against Patient's Will

    Girly , you are obviosly one of those lawyers who is an absolute idiot but wants to look like a tough bastard. Like the oversized pick up with truck nuts passing you by on the road but with no brain cells. This is you. Live it, know it. You are a terrible deductive reasoner, and if you were in my law firm you would be a short timer. The anesthesiologist explains in detail that you will have a local, mac anesthetic for your knee scope. Simple, no problem. The surgeon ruptures the femoral artery, happens a lot, your blood pressure goes to 30 and you loose your respiratory drive, your heart rate goes to 160. You are about to die. Should the anesthesiologist ( who spoke to you in detail about your local anesthetic) go to the courts and obtain a court order to switch your anesthetic plan( as explained to you when your BP was 120/80 and had a brain wave) to a general anesthetic and add invasive monitoring ( swan-ganz catheter, arterial and central line, TEE etc. ) to you so that you may live? You are a flat out lawyer idiot. If you know medicine better than doctors , do it yourself. I hope you need major surgery soon so you can discuss all these things, bone head....

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Anesthesia Given Without Consent And Against Patient's Will

    Quote Quoting Vincent B
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    Girly , you are obviosly one of those lawyers who is an absolute idiot but wants to look like a tough bastard. Like the oversized pick up with truck nuts passing you by on the road but with no brain cells. This is you. Live it, know it. You are a terrible deductive reasoner, and if you were in my law firm you would be a short timer. The anesthesiologist explains in detail that you will have a local, mac anesthetic for your knee scope. Simple, no problem. The surgeon ruptures the femoral artery, happens a lot, your blood pressure goes to 30 and you loose your respiratory drive, your heart rate goes to 160. You are about to die. Should the anesthesiologist ( who spoke to you in detail about your local anesthetic) go to the courts and obtain a court order to switch your anesthetic plan( as explained to you when your BP was 120/80 and had a brain wave) to a general anesthetic and add invasive monitoring ( swan-ganz catheter, arterial and central line, TEE etc. ) to you so that you may live? You are a flat out lawyer idiot. If you know medicine better than doctors , do it yourself. I hope you need major surgery soon so you can discuss all these things, bone head....
    At no point was anyone saying they knew medicine. You can stop trotting out $.50 references from Gray's Anatomy whenever you want.

    What we said was that if the patient insists on a given circumstance, you should go out of your way to either A) do it that way or B) convince the patient why the way you are doing it is the way to go.

    Telling the OP you were going to do it her way and then ignoring her wishes completely the moment she couldn't stop you is tantamount to rape.

    Your knowledge, at no time and in no legal, moral or ethical means, gives you the right and/or ability to ignore a patient's wishes completely.

    Believe it or not, there are bad doctors out there... I can quote you the stats of the number that had their licenses revoked for any state you wish. I can even go further and review the number of doctors with multiple malpractice suits if you wish.

    If doctors, as individuals and as a group, were infallible, then your argument might have a slight chance. Until you prove to me that you gain omnipotent ability and knowledge along with that diploma, I will continue to consider my doctor as prone to mistake as any other human.

    Sorry... the rest of us see you as just skin, bone, blood and muscle. You have to put the halo on yourself.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Anesthesia Given Without Consent And Against Patient's Will

    Quote Quoting cyjeff
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    At no point was anyone saying they knew medicine. You can stop trotting out $.50 references from Gray's Anatomy whenever you want.

    What we said was that if the patient insists on a given circumstance, you should go out of your way to either A) do it that way or B) convince the patient why the way you are doing it is the way to go.

    Telling the OP you were going to do it her way and then ignoring her wishes completely the moment she couldn't stop you is tantamount to rape.

    Your knowledge, at no time and in no legal, moral or ethical means, gives you the right and/or ability to ignore a patient's wishes completely.

    Believe it or not, there are bad doctors out there... I can quote you the stats of the number that had their licenses revoked for any state you wish. I can even go further and review the number of doctors with multiple malpractice suits if you wish.

    If doctors, as individuals and as a group, were infallible, then your argument might have a slight chance. Until you prove to me that you gain omnipotent ability and knowledge along with that diploma, I will continue to consider my doctor as prone to mistake as any other human.

    Sorry... the rest of us see you as just skin, bone, blood and muscle. You have to put the halo on yourself.
    Again well said. Your also exactly right!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Anesthesia Given Without Consent And Against Patient's Will

    Quote Quoting Vincent B
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    Girly , you are obviosly one of those lawyers who is an absolute idiot but wants to look like a tough bastard. Like the oversized pick up with truck nuts passing you by on the road but with no brain cells. This is you. Live it, know it. You are a terrible deductive reasoner, and if you were in my law firm you would be a short timer. The anesthesiologist explains in detail that you will have a local, mac anesthetic for your knee scope. Simple, no problem. The surgeon ruptures the femoral artery, happens a lot, your blood pressure goes to 30 and you loose your respiratory drive, your heart rate goes to 160. You are about to die. Should the anesthesiologist ( who spoke to you in detail about your local anesthetic) go to the courts and obtain a court order to switch your anesthetic plan( as explained to you when your BP was 120/80 and had a brain wave) to a general anesthetic and add invasive monitoring ( swan-ganz catheter, arterial and central line, TEE etc. ) to you so that you may live? You are a flat out lawyer idiot. If you know medicine better than doctors , do it yourself. I hope you need major surgery soon so you can discuss all these things, bone head....
    First of all, your the idiot! I'm not a lawyer, and your not in the medical professional either... so before you go shouting terms you don't know and make an assumption here (for your information I wouldn't work for someone who knows everything, they are too hard to teach anything to) Explain to me how a TEE is invasive monitoring? It's a flippin test, yes invasive but the scope isn't left in the patient like swan or central line as you have linked them. I hold a license in the medical field so I think you can go back to your desk job in a law firm and leave the medical terms to someone who knows what they are talking about.
    The OP explained to the physician here that she did not want something given to her bc she had a bad reaction. It's her right to say NO. He has a right NOT to have her as a patient, if he is inconvienced by her attitude then he should refuse. Oh no, he won't walk away from the cash, his malpractice insurance is too high. Let me guess, your a malpractice attorney? I don't know medicine better than doctors, but I know patients rights and what was done to this lady was flat out wrong. I'll refrain from the name calling...what a pleasant boss you must be!
    If you honestly believe that this Dr has a right to do whatever he wants to this patient against her wishes then you defend then during their lawsuit then will not be a very successful lawyer.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Anesthesia Given Without Consent And Against Patient's Will

    Girly, you are right... I assumed Vincent was a least a doctor....

    Looks like he just defends them... but, good news, the complex rubbed off on him.

    I guess being looked down on by your own clients gets to be wearing...

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