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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Default Juvenile Speeding At 65-70mph In 35mph Street Zone

    I am 17 years old and got my first ticket for speeding for going 60-75+mph in a 35mph zone on a street in a small city in California. I also ran a stop sign at the same time and he said it was at 60mph. Local police officer wrote me down for two infractions, 22350 and 22450. Will this be two points on my driving record or just one? Can I go to traffic school for either of these infractions? Should I hire an attorney and go to trial or just plead guilty? Please answer asap as I have to go to juvenile traffic court on 2/19/08.
    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Juvenile Speeding At 65-70mph In 35mph Street Zone

    Quote Quoting cel1125
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    I am 17 years old and got my first ticket for speeding for going 60-75+mph in a 35mph zone on a street in a small city in California. I also ran a stop sign at the same time and he said it was at 60mph. Local police officer wrote me down for two infractions, 22350 and 22450. Will this be two points on my driving record or just one? Can I go to traffic school for either of these infractions? Should I hire an attorney and go to trial or just plead guilty? Please answer asap as I have to go to juvenile traffic court on 2/19/08.
    Thanks!

    The two violations are both one point EACH. You can probably (based on your driving history), go to traffic school for one.

    If you blew a stop sign at 60mph you are lucky the officer didn't cite you for reckless driving instead. He saved you a misdemenaor conviction, a larger fine, and the possibitity of arrest.

    When I was a juvenile I was arrested for reckless driving. I went, with my mother and told the juvenile traffic court judge (in his chambers) my side of the story and he reduced it to a stop sign, 22450 VC.

    Honestly, you are asking for help too late in the game. If you havent asked for discovery yet then it's too late. Gook luck with your court. I just arrested a gut for driving on a suspended license (at the age of 20) with 7 prior 22350 charges, two 23103, multiple 16028 (insurance) and a few 22450's just to spice things up. DONT BE THAT GUY...slow down.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Juvenile Speeding At 65-70mph In 35mph Street Zone

    We just scraped a kid off the road last Friday in a crosswalk because someone decided stopping at a stop sign was only a quaint suggestion. Fortunately, the child will live ... slow down and also, be careful at those stop signs!

    Note also that at 25 or more over the limit, the clerk of the court cannot offer you traffic school, only the judge can do that.

    - Carl
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Juvenile Speeding At 65-70mph In 35mph Street Zone

    As for the stop sign... I think I'd ask for traffic school for that one at arraignment and plead not guilty to the 22350. You should contact CALTRANS right now and get a copy of the speed survey that justifies the speed limit. If the speed limit is not justified, then you are the victim of a speed trap.

    I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet the speed limit is unjustified.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Juvenile Speeding At 65-70mph In 35mph Street Zone

    Quote Quoting 2JIMinCA
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    As for the stop sign... I think I'd ask for traffic school for that one at arraignment and plead not guilty to the 22350. You should contact CALTRANS right now and get a copy of the speed survey that justifies the speed limit. If the speed limit is not justified, then you are the victim of a speed trap.

    I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet the speed limit is unjustified.
    Jim, the cite was issued in a "small city" in CA - it is very unlikely that Cal-Trans will have the survey unless it is a highway running through town.

    Plus, at that high a speed (30-35 over), it is likely that the elements of "unsafe" can be shown rather than simply a violation of the posted speed limit.

    - Carl
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Juvenile Speeding At 65-70mph In 35mph Street Zone

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    Jim, the cite was issued in a "small city" in CA - it is very unlikely that Cal-Trans will have the survey unless it is a highway running through town.
    Well then, the speed limit would be unjustified if no survey has been conducted within the previous 5 years.

    Plus, at that high a speed (30-35 over), it is likely that the elements of "unsafe" can be shown rather than simply a violation of the posted speed limit.

    - Carl
    I don't think it matters if he was doing 135 over the limit, if it is a speed trap,

    1. NO EVIDENCE of speed can be used against him.
    2. The officer is INCOMPETENT to serve as witness
    3. The court is without jurisdiction to convict


    I thought you would know all of this given your position. I know this really annoys many people who post here, but they should be angry at their legislators. This is NOT a technicality. The legislature wrote about a half dozen sections in the vehicle code that deal with speed traps. They had a clear intent when they did that. It wasn't a slip up or mistake or oversight.


    40802. (a) A "speed trap" is either of the following:
    (2) A particular section of a highway with a prima facie speed
    limit that is provided by this code or by local ordinance under
    subparagraph (A) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (a) of Section
    22352, or established under Section 22354, 22357, 22358, or 22358.3,
    if that prima facie speed limit is not justified by an engineering
    and traffic survey conducted within five years prior to the date of
    the alleged violation, and enforcement of the speed limit involves
    the use of radar or any other electronic device that measures the
    speed of moving objects. This paragraph does not apply to a local
    street, road, or school zone.

    40803. (a) No evidence as to the speed of a vehicle upon a highway
    shall be admitted in any court upon the trial of any person in any
    prosecution under this code upon a charge involving the speed of a
    vehicle when the evidence is based upon or obtained from or by the
    maintenance or use of a speedtrap.


    40804. (a) In any prosecution under this code upon a charge
    involving the speed of a vehicle, an officer or other person shall be
    incompetent as a witness if the testimony is based upon or obtained
    from or by the maintenance or use of a speed trap.


    40805. Every court shall be without jurisdiction to render a
    judgment of conviction against any person for a violation of this
    code involving the speed of a vehicle if the court admits any
    evidence or testimony secured in violation of, or which is
    inadmissible under this article.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Juvenile Speeding At 65-70mph In 35mph Street Zone

    Correct, no evidence of the speed of the vehicle ... BUT, saying that a person was traveling too fast for conditions does not require a specific speed. An inadequate survey is NOT a license to enter the Le Mans raceway. Unsafe speed still applies.

    You can disagree on that point, but that is how I have seen it applied time and time again when unsafe speed is the issue and not simply exceeding the limit.

    Frankly, I consider numerous court interpretations as being far more valid that any lay interpretation. But, you are free to disagree and I am sure you will.

    Oh, and Cal-Trans does not DO surveys within the cities ... in my city, the county takes care of it ... where I used to work, the city takes care of it ... Cal-Trans ONLY does speed surveys on the highways. So, if the OP wants the local speed survey, he should first contact the city and NOT Cal-Trans.

    - Carl
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  8. #8
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    Sep 2005
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    California
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    Default Re: Juvenile Speeding At 65-70mph In 35mph Street Zone

    Here is the law:

    Basic Speed Law - Punitive (Veh. Code, 22350, 38305)
    "No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property."

    In other words, this statute is violated if a driver (1) is driving at an unreasonable speed in light of the listed considerations, or (2) is driving at a speed that is dangerous to other persons or property. (Ellis (1999) 69 Cal.App.4th 1334, 1339; Behjat (2000) 84 Cal.App.4th Supp. 1, 3-4.)

    If the charge rests upon an allegation that the defendant exceeded a posted or prima facie speed limit, the people must introduce evidence of a traffic and engineering survey, made within the past five years, which justifies that speed limit; without such proof, the officer who cited the driver will be considered "incompetent" to testify at trial concerning the defendant's speed. (Huffman (2000) 88 Cal.App.4th Supp. 1, 3-4.)

    Note that only paragraph 3 involving a violation of the posted or prima facie relies on the speed trap issue.

    - Carl
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  9. #9
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    Jan 2008
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    100

    Default Re: Juvenile Speeding At 65-70mph In 35mph Street Zone

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Correct, no evidence of the speed of the vehicle ... BUT, saying that a person was traveling too fast for conditions does not require a specific speed. An inadequate survey is NOT a license to enter the Le Mans raceway. Unsafe speed still applies.
    Just what part of "NO EVIDENCE AS TO THE SPEED OF A VEHICLE" do you not understand? This is not subject to interpretation... it is black letter law! The State CANNOT show that speed created an unsafe condition if no evidence of speed is admissable!!


    You can disagree on that point, but that is how I have seen it applied time and time again when unsafe speed is the issue and not simply exceeding the limit.
    Just because you may have experience in a kangaroo court that ignores the law, doesn't mean the law was appropriately applied. As I have said before, that's why appellate courts were invented.

    Frankly, I consider numerous court interpretations as being far more valid that any lay interpretation. But, you are free to disagree and I am sure you will.
    I challange you to produce one single court case that supports your opinion. I can produce several that support mine.

    Oh, and Cal-Trans does not DO surveys within the cities ... in my city, the county takes care of it ... where I used to work, the city takes care of it ... Cal-Trans ONLY does speed surveys on the highways. So, if the OP wants the local speed survey, he should first contact the city and NOT Cal-Trans.

    - Carl
    Good info... the OP should go to the city vice caltrans.


    I am really beginning to wonder about you as an officer of the law. You have made several posts, this being one of them, showing that you support enforcing the laws as you THINK they should have been written... not as they are written. As I said before, the legislature was clear in their intent by writing a half dozen or so seperate sections in the Vehicle Code that limits the State's authority in the maintenance of a speed trap. This was a clear intent... not a mistake!!! Instead of whining about "wouldn't it be easier to just obey the speed limit", why don't you advocate that the State not engage in the maintenance of speed traps?!?! After all, if the State did its job correctly, I would have no points to make!!

    Now, since you are a supervisory level police officer, I encourage you to review the speed surveys of the streets you and your officers patrol, ensure that posted speed limits are correct as per the law, and ensure your officers follow procedures dictated by the law so the actual offenders can be actually prosecuted!!!

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Juvenile Speeding At 65-70mph In 35mph Street Zone

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Here is the law:

    Basic Speed Law - Punitive (Veh. Code, 22350, 38305)
    "No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property."

    In other words, this statute is violated if a driver (1) is driving at an unreasonable speed in light of the listed considerations, or (2) is driving at a speed that is dangerous to other persons or property. (Ellis (1999) 69 Cal.App.4th 1334, 1339; Behjat (2000) 84 Cal.App.4th Supp. 1, 3-4.)

    If the charge rests upon an allegation that the defendant exceeded a posted or prima facie speed limit, the people must introduce evidence of a traffic and engineering survey, made within the past five years, which justifies that speed limit; without such proof, the officer who cited the driver will be considered "incompetent" to testify at trial concerning the defendant's speed. (Huffman (2000) 88 Cal.App.4th Supp. 1, 3-4.)

    Note that only paragraph 3 involving a violation of the posted or prima facie relies on the speed trap issue.

    - Carl

    You are making my point for me. The charge DOES rest upon the allegation that the defendant exceeded a posted prima facie speed limit!! If it didn't, the officer would have to show specific evidence that the driver endangered persons or property as is required in People v. Bhat (a case you cited).

    In a prosecution under Vehicle Code section 22350, the record must contain substantial evidence from which a fact finder could conclude either that the defendant drove at a speed that endangered people or property or that she drove at a speed that was unreasonable for the driving conditions.
    The entire opinion can be read here.

    First of all, I have never seen or heard of that being shown on a 22350 charge. The reason is... if he was endangering persons or property, he would have been cited for something much more sever than 22350 (i.e. reckless driving). Instead of explaining it, I'll just show a quote from People v. Studley:

    This case presents the following question: where a motorist is cited, by the use of radar, for speed in excess of the state maximum speed limit on a nonlocal road with a prima facie speed limit of 50 miles per hour, and where a traffic and engineering survey is not proved at trial, do California's speed trap laws apply to compel exclusion of all evidence of speed? We hold the answer is "yes."
    And a quote from People v. DiFiore

    Defendant was convicted of violating the basic speed law (Veh. Code, 22350). fn. 1 The arresting officer testified that defendant was clocked on radar driving 64 miles per hour on a street posted for 40 miles per hour. Defendant then objected on grounds that the officer had failed to lay a foundation, because the officer had not presented an engineering and traffic survey. The court overruled the objection as not timely. The court erred.

    [1a] In cases in which a defendant is charged with violating the basic speed law, based on evidence that the defendant exceeded a prima facie or posted speed, and evidence of that speed is obtained through radar, the People are required to produce a current engineering and traffic survey, even without the defendant's request. (People v. Halopoff (1976) 60 Cal.App.3d Supp. 1, 6 [131 Cal.Rptr. 531]; see 22350, 22351. [2a] Here, even though requested by defendant, no survey was produced; the trial court erred. (See People v. Peterson (1986) 181 Cal.App.3d Supp. 7, 10 [226 Cal.Rptr. 544].)

    We conclude that defendant was entitled to rely on the anti-speed-trap laws even though the evidence showed that defendant was driving in excess of 55 miles per hour. ( 22348.) fn. 2 One of the purposes of the anti-speed-trap laws ( 40801-40807) is to insure that localities do not post unreasonably low speed limits (see 40802, subd. (b)). That purpose would be defeated if officers were permitted to testify that a defendant's speed was both unlawfully excessive, within the meaning of section 22348, and unsafe or unreasonable, within the meaning of section 22350, without complying with the anti-speed-trap laws which require the production of a current survey.

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