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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    California
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    20,594

    Default Re: Opening Mail With Someone Else's Name

    JK, this issue comes up in real life with some frequency. Almost invariably it is a situation involving quibbling estranged or split spouses, and with equal certainty the USPS interprets the law as Mr. Knowitall has explained.

    As I said, even if there were a statute interpreted as to cover it, no US Attorney (vastly overworked and understaffed) is going to pursue this matter given the only "offense" was opening it. Likewise, I don't a DA so bored as to take up the case, either, even if it were a violation of some state law.

    - Carl

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    Default Re: Opening Mail With Someone Else's Name

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    JK, this issue comes up in real life with some frequency. Almost invariably it is a situation involving quibbling estranged or split spouses, and with equal certainty the USPS interprets the law as Mr. Knowitall has explained.

    As I said, even if there were a statute interpreted as to cover it, no US Attorney (vastly overworked and understaffed) is going to pursue this matter given the only "offense" was opening it. Likewise, I don't a DA so bored as to take up the case, either, even if it were a violation of some state law.

    - Carl
    It's not that I believe something such as this situation would be prosecuted but the letter of the law quoted included OPENING the mail. It also states the mail is to be delivered to the PERSON, not merely the address (which btw, the wife has misrepresented so as to recieve the EOB's, which ARE protected info under HIPAA. If there is any personal medical info in any of those EOB;s other than the childs, the insurance company is in violation of the HIPAA laws.)How it is prosecuted may be different than what the statute actually states but it does specifically address opening of the mail and the person as opposed to the address.

    I didn't write the law. It says what it says.

    and regardless of the wife having authorization to use the insurance (which btw has never been presented here. The child has use of the insurance, not the mother), she still would not have any right to recieve the EOB's as it is the fathers insurance and all correspondance would be required to be directed to the father as the policy holder, not the mother who has nothing to do with the insurance unless the father (policy holder) has directed the insurance company to act otherwise.

    Bottom line, I do understand the USPS probably will not do anything although if it were me, I would still ask them. They may initiate a minor investigation that will get the mother to refrain from the action. The father is pretty much relegated to asking the courts to place and enforce an order against the mother to refrain from her current activity.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Opening Mail With Someone Else's Name

    The problem here seems to be your dogmatic adherence to your misinterpretation of the statute.

    I can see the statute being applied to somebody who knowingly converts misdirected mail (you cash a check addressed to your neighbor, but mistakenly delivered to you), but I have never seen any authority or evidence of any prosecution involving a situation such as the one under discussion. Has anybody?

  4. #24
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    Jan 2006
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    Default Re: Opening Mail With Someone Else's Name

    I do not have the knowledge or access to search for applicable cases so I am not able to provide you with much of any substantive proof.

    In this link:http://www.nd.edu/~watch/chap12.htm

    The legal standing of email privacy is simple — there is none. Though opening regular mail addressed to another person is a federal crime, important legal questions regarding electronic forms of mail have not been raised or answered yet by the courts. Meanwhile, most employers view email as employer property. Rule of thumb advice:
    that poster does elude to the fact they understand that opening mail addressed to another is illegal. It is only mentioned as a contrast to e-mail, which was actually the topic at hand, but they did state simply that it was illegal. I think I will tend to accept their belief over yours Mr.K. If you did not notice where that link is from, it is from the University of Notre Dame, which most folks employed in the legal field, do acknowledge as having a fair law school. I would suspect that what is published under the guise as being from the university would have to pass muster for accuracy.

    I also found a couple cases that stated the federal courts do have more than one stance on this situation and part of them do feel that it is illegal.

    As noted by appellant, there is a split among the federal circuits as to how this statute should be interpreted. Several courts have interpreted the legislation as drawing a distinction between "misaddressed" and "misdelivered" mail, holding that where the sender places the name of a third person on the envelope but uses the defendant's address, the item ceases to be "mail matter" once it has been delivered to the place listed on the envelope, even if the addressee is not at that address. See, e.g., United States v. Lavin, 567 F.2d 579, 581 n.6 (3d Cir. 1977); United States v. Anton, 547 F.2d 493, 495 (9th Cir. 1976); and United States v. Davis, 461 F.2d 83, 88-89 (5th Cir.), cert. denied, 409 U.S. 921 (1972). Under that view, although it is permissible to prosecute a defendant for stealing from a letter addressed to another location that has been misdelivered to the defendant's address, a defendant cannot be prosecuted for stealing from an envelope that contains the defendant's address, even if a third party is the named addressee. Other circuits have taken the view that a person may be prosecuted for mail theft for stealing mail addressed to another person, regardless whether it is misdelivered or misaddressed. See, e.g., United States v. Palmer, 864 F.2d 524 (7th Cir. 1988), cert. denied, 490U.S. 1110 (1989); United States v. Douglas, 668 F.2d 459 (10th Cir.), cert. denied, 457 U.S. 1108 (1982).
    Maybe you could look those referrences up Mr. K.

    Since the hubby does not live at the address the mail is being left at, the mail would be considered to be misaddressed. It is obvious the insurance company intends to send it to the husband since his name is on the mail as well as there is no reason for them to send it to the ex wife as I have stated before.

  5. #25
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    Sep 2005
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    California
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    Default Re: Opening Mail With Someone Else's Name

    And, good luck on getting a DA or US Attorney to even look at it when the issue is simply opening mail that has benefits info.

    Enough already!

    This will not be prosecuted. One can theorize all day long whether the OP's local court or federal circuit will recognize this as a crime, but it won't change the fact that no prosecutor is going to waste any time with this. There's nothing here.

    The OP needs to go back to civil court and see if that judge can force the ex into something. But, if the OP's court is in HER state, and the ex lives in another state, that is likely ALSO an exercise in futility. So, the Ex needs to talk to his insurance company and to the medical provider to make certain that HE gets the bills.

    - Carl

  6. #26
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    Jan 2006
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    Default Re: Opening Mail With Someone Else's Name

    Carl, did you miss where I had acknowledged what you just posted several posts ago? Around post 9 is where I stated OP needs to deal with the insurance company and self initiated court action to remedy the problem. Everything since then was simply academic.

    I agreed to the probable action long ago but Mr. K wanted to beat me up for my position. I was merely lightly defending the underlying position, not what reality would dictate would happen.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Opening Mail With Someone Else's Name

    I'll concede that, thirty or so years ago, there was apparently a split between the circuits largely consistent with my prior statements - most circuits saying "the law ends when the addressee removes the mail from the mailbox" and a few circuits extending the law to the theft or conversion of misdelivered mail by the addressee. And I would be interested to learn how the case law has since developed. But even that's consistent with my prior statement - you're describing the conversion of misdirected mail - which is not what is alleged to have happened here. The issue here is one of divorce judgments and insurance company policy, and to the extent that dad objects to either his angry acquiescence is not enough to turn this into a crime. If you can't find any case which speaks to the issue we are actually discussing, sorry if you think it means I'm beating you up, you really have no business carrying on about how federal law was violated and how the Postmaster will launch an investigation. We (now) all agree that the feds will pass on this one.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Opening Mail With Someone Else's Name

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    We (now) all agree that the feds will pass on this one.
    we agreed to that a long time ago. You apparently missed my memo

    btw, the mail is misaddressed, as I noted before. it is intended for hubby but does not have his correct address on it. That would be misaddressed and was addressed in the statute I provided.

    how the Postmaster will launch an investigation.
    I did not unequivically state the PM would launch an investigation. I suggested contacting the PM with the hope that they would initiate a low level investigation which may have the desired affect of causing the mom to stop opening dads mail. It may be a means to an end although I agreed a long time ago that it would not be prosecuted as a crime.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    28,906

    Default Re: Opening Mail With Someone Else's Name

    From what was written, the address was used by the insurance company because the mother's address is the billing address. There's no indication that this was "misaddressed". But it's not worth arguing about.

    Interestingly, my daughter's EOB's come in her name. It would be interesting to see how the envelopes are actually addressed, as (above and beyond the fact that this is "much ado about nothing") this may be "much ado about nothing."

    Meanwhile, as has been repeatedly observed, if Dad wants to be sure that his insurance company sends all correspondence to him, he needs to contact them and arrange that.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Ohio
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    1,126

    Default Re: Opening Mail With Someone Else's Name

    jk: The mother could actually help the da by making sure that the medical procedures that she "witnessed" were properly billed. That's what I use my EOB for. When I get it, I can know immediately if I will get another bill from the doctor's office, or if something doesn't seem right.

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