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  1. #51
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    Oct 2014
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    Default Re: Can I Be Fired for Drug Use Without Failing a Drug Test

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    I know very well that a person can get convicted without a chemical test because I watched it happen to my sister-in-law a quarter mile from my house about 8 years ago.
    Well, there you go. You agree with me on that. And if you knew that, why did you argue so hard before that chemical tests were always necessary? You already knew from personal experience that your statement was not true.

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    It was you that said observation alone can convict someone in a court of law. And I said that has never happened.
    Correct, Harold, you did say that has never happened. A bold claim, considering that there have been millions of DUI prosecutions over the decades, and yet you claim that it has NEVER happened, not even once. And you are wrong again. It has happened. Since it takes just one case to prove that it has happened, here you go:

    The state may show proof of impairment under OCGA § 40-6-391(a) by introducing evidence of (1) erratic driving behavior, (2) failure to pass field sobriety tests, and (3) the officer's own observations, such as smelling alcohol and observing strange behavior, and resulting opinion that the alcohol made it less safe for the defendant to drive. Here, ample evidence supports the trial judge's conclusion that Gregoire was driving under the influence, including the officer's testimony regarding Gregoire's erratic driving behavior and his characteristics and demeanor after the stop. This evidence, coupled with the officer's testimony that, based upon his observations, police training and experience, Gregoire was a less safe driver as a result of being under the influence of alcohol, was sufficient to allow a rational trier of fact to conclude that Gregoire was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of driving while under the influence of alcohol.

    Gregoire v. State, 285 Ga. App. 111, 113–14, 645 S.E.2d 611, 613–14 (2007). So, here you have case where the defendant was convicted just off the officer's observations of the defendant's driving and his condition after the stop. No chemical test. No admission from the defendant that he'd been drinking. No accident. In short, none of the other things you contended would be needed. This case disproves your earlier statement:


    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    Further, to prove intoxication on pot or alcohol requires a chemical test, not an assumption based on observation. Or some flim-flam FST.
    This case shows both parts of your statement to be incorrect. First, it demonstrates that no chemical test was required for conviction. Second, the officer's observations, including those "flim-flam" FSTs, were all that were needed to convict.

    So, once again, you come up short because you didn't bother to research your claims before slapping down your gut reactions as to what the law is.

  2. #52
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    Feb 2020
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    750

    Default Re: Can I Be Fired for Drug Use Without Failing a Drug Test

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    Well, there you go. You agree with me on that. And if you knew that, why did you argue so hard before that chemical tests were always necessary? You already knew from personal experience that your statement was not true.



    Correct, Harold, you did say that has never happened. A bold claim, considering that there have been millions of DUI prosecutions over the decades, and yet you claim that it has NEVER happened, not even once. And you are wrong again. It has happened. Since it takes just one case to prove that it has happened, here you go:

    The state may show proof of impairment under OCGA § 40-6-391(a) by introducing evidence of (1) erratic driving behavior, (2) failure to pass field sobriety tests, and (3) the officer's own observations, such as smelling alcohol and observing strange behavior, and resulting opinion that the alcohol made it less safe for the defendant to drive. Here, ample evidence supports the trial judge's conclusion that Gregoire was driving under the influence, including the officer's testimony regarding Gregoire's erratic driving behavior and his characteristics and demeanor after the stop. This evidence, coupled with the officer's testimony that, based upon his observations, police training and experience, Gregoire was a less safe driver as a result of being under the influence of alcohol, was sufficient to allow a rational trier of fact to conclude that Gregoire was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of driving while under the influence of alcohol.

    Gregoire v. State, 285 Ga. App. 111, 113–14, 645 S.E.2d 611, 613–14 (2007). So, here you have case where the defendant was convicted just off the officer's observations of the defendant's driving and his condition after the stop. No chemical test. No admission from the defendant that he'd been drinking. No accident. In short, none of the other things you contended would be needed. This case disproves your earlier statement:




    This case shows both parts of your statement to be incorrect. First, it demonstrates that no chemical test was required for conviction. Second, the officer's observations, including those "flim-flam" FSTs, were all that were needed to convict.

    So, once again, you come up short because you didn't bother to research your claims before slapping down your gut reactions as to what the law is.
    You may want to theorize that it only took an FST to convict a drunk defendant but you have zero evidence of that.

    It may be new to you what happens at a trial but the prosecutor will not only show the FST results and then rest his case after that. He will likely have sworn testimony from folks at the location the defendant came from. From the bartender that served him. Other patrons at the bar or house who witnessed the defendant drinking. He may have dead, injured bodies or an accident scene. But to make my point, the jury will consider far more than only the FST results before rendering a guilty verdict. Therefore, an FST alone is never used to convict unless the defendant takes a plea and avoids a trial. But I've said that five times now but you like to ignore it.

  3. #53
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    Mar 2013
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    18,340

    Default Re: Can I Be Fired for Drug Use Without Failing a Drug Test

    Notice to readers:

    Harold99 posts for no other reason than to take shots at senior members of the forum and lawyers in general. It would be wise to ignore whatever he writes. While the person posting under the name of Harold99 has been banned from this site at least 3 times but, due to the current lack of moderation, he isn’t being banned. Hopefully, that will change in the future but for now, we have to live with it. For now, I suggest you simply ignore his posts but if you do read them please read any responses posted by the more rational members.

  4. #54
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    Feb 2020
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    750

    Default Re: Can I Be Fired for Drug Use Without Failing a Drug Test

    Quote Quoting adjusterjack
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    Notice to readers:

    Harold99 posts for no other reason than to take shots at senior members of the forum and lawyers in general. It would be wise to ignore whatever he writes. While the person posting under the name of Harold99 has been banned from this site at least 3 times but, due to the current lack of moderation, he isn’t being banned. Hopefully, that will change in the future but for now, we have to live with it. For now, I suggest you simply ignore his posts but if you do read them please read any responses posted by the more rational members.
    Hey Jack, you being the moderator you always wanted to be? Got nothing else to do with your time?

    Tell you what, I'm going on a fifty mile bike ride right now and I'll come back with a way to deal with you...and your buddy. But know that there is one thing I am not lacking, and that is tenacity.

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
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    8,238

    Default Re: Can I Be Fired for Drug Use Without Failing a Drug Test

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    It may be new to you what happens at a trial but the prosecutor will not only show the FST results and then rest his case after that.
    Ah, but Harold, I never said that FSTs alone have won a case. Perhaps it has, but I've not researched it. But certainly defendants have been convicted on just the observations made by the officer, including but not limited to, the FSTs. I've proven that with the case law. So I've backed up the claims I've actually made. Don't put words in my mouth, Harold. It's an unworthy tactic from a guy who always claims to take the high ground.

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    He will likely have sworn testimony from folks at the location the defendant came from. From the bartender that served him. Other patrons at the bar or house who witnessed the defendant drinking. He may have dead, injured bodies or an accident scene.
    While some cases do have such evidence admitted, many do not. And yes I know that because while in college I worked for a DUI attorney and observed a number of his DUI trials and have seen a number of other DUI trials since then, too. I'm pretty sure I've seen far more DUI trials than you have ever observed. I've also researched the case law to see what sorts of evidence have been used to convict defendants.


    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    But to make my point, the jury will consider far more than only the FST results before rendering a guilty verdict.
    They'll consider whatever evidence is introduced. If all they get are the officer's observations, then that's all they have to go on. And defendants have been convicted on that alone. Now, to be clear, the prosecution is going to use anything it has that helps its case, so if it has other evidence to bolster the case the prosecutor is going to throw that in.

    Thus, you will see a lot of cases in which chemical tests are introduced. Indeed, those are now the majority of alcohol DUI cases. You'll see a fair number of cases in which the defendant admitted to drinking or doing drugs before driving. You may have an accident. Or there may testimony of other witnesses as to the defendant's drinking before trial. So you are not wrong that such evidence does show up in DUI cases. But you were wrong that those sorts of things are required. The state can get a conviction without that that sort of evidence. It's great for the prosecutor, though, if he does have it.


    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    Therefore, an FST alone is never used to convict unless the defendant takes a plea and avoids a trial. But I've said that five times now but you like to ignore it.
    No, Harold, you've not said that five times. You've only made that claim in your last reply, post #52. So no, I've not ignored it. If you have made that exact claim 4 times before that, please give me the post numbers for it. I've reviewed the thread and don't see that particular claim being made before. So evidently, you won't even research your own posts before making claims.

    And again, I never said FSTs alone would be good enough. Perhaps someone has been convicted on just that and literally nothing else, but I'll agree that it's at least extremely unlikely. You might turn out to be right on that one. So I'll give you that.

    While we are are on FSTs, in fairness to you I'll acknowledge that I recall you once said in another thread that one should never agree to do FSTs when they get stopped. I totally agree with you on that. In at least most states there is no down side to refusing the FSTs, but by doing them you hand additional ammunition to the cop and prosecutor to use against you. Likewise, one should never admit to having had drinks or doing drugs prior to driving. Again, there is no benefit to that but those statements will be used against you. Indeed, the best thing to do is not make any statements to the cop at all.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    19,901

    Default Re: Can I Be Fired for Drug Use Without Failing a Drug Test

    I've seen DUIs done without a chemical test. The FSTs coupled with the other observations of the officer can be more than enough. I've also seen people convicted with a lower than the per se limit.

    On the other hand, I've seen a good lawyer blast away at a prosecution without a chemical test and prevail as well.

    But again this is all completely irrelevant. There's no "beyond a reasonable doubt" or need to show "intoxication" in this case. In 49 states, there's no obligation that the employer have some reason to terminate an employee. There are a few cases where the employer is not allowed to use, such as race, religiion, etc... In PA, the law bans the mere fact that the person has medical marijuana authorized as being a reason. However, as we've been through it, showing up under the influence (as subjective as the employer wants to make it) or smelling of pot, is not protected.

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
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    4,301

    Default Re: Can I Be Fired for Drug Use Without Failing a Drug Test

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    Hey Jack, you being the moderator you always wanted to be? Got nothing else to do with your time?

    Tell you what, I'm going on a fifty mile bike ride right now and I'll come back with a way to deal with you...and your buddy. But know that there is one thing I am not lacking, and that is tenacity.
    Attention Readers,

    Harold99 posts for no other reason than to take shots at senior members of the forum and lawyers in general. *It would be wise to ignore whatever he writes. While the person posting under the name of Harold99 has been banned from this site at least 3 times but, due to the current lack of moderation, he isn’t being banned. Hopefully, that will change in the future but for now, we have to live with it.

    For now, I suggest you simply ignore his posts but if you do read them please read any responses posted by the more rational members.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    750

    Default Re: Can I Be Fired for Drug Use Without Failing a Drug Test

    Quote Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post
    Attention Readers,

    Harold99 posts for no other reason than to take shots at senior members of the forum and lawyers in general. *It would be wise to ignore whatever he writes. While the person posting under the name of Harold99 has been banned from this site at least 3 times but, due to the current lack of moderation, he isn’t being banned. Hopefully, that will change in the future but for now, we have to live with it.

    For now, I suggest you simply ignore his posts but if you do read them please read any responses posted by the more rational members.
    Attention Readers:

    Payrolguy is being a troll on this site by stalking other members. He is currently breaking a site rule on stalking and actively pursuing me by repeatedly littering these threads with the same above message in a childish and prohibited attempt to stop me from posting.

    Unlike Payrolguy, I have not broken any site rules. No rules exist on being critical of an OP and/or a member as we can comment on whatever we wish. The 'ignore button' is available for issues like his.

    Please forgive Payrolguy's childish and forbidden posting behavior as this plays out.

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    16,474

    Default Re: Can I Be Fired for Drug Use Without Failing a Drug Test

    Quote Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    Attention Readers:

    Payrolguy is being a troll on this site by stalking other members. He is currently breaking a site rule on stalking and actively pursuing me by repeatedly littering these threads with the same above message in a childish and prohibited attempt to stop me from posting.

    Unlike Payrolguy, I have not broken any site rules. No rules exist on being critical of an OP and/or a member as we can comment on whatever we wish. The 'ignore button' is available for issues like his.

    Please forgive Payrolguy's childish and forbidden posting behavior as this plays out.
    Please believe PayrolGuy.

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    750

    Default Re: Can I Be Fired for Drug Use Without Failing a Drug Test

    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    I've seen DUIs done without a chemical test. The FSTs coupled with the other observations of the officer can be more than enough. I've also seen people convicted with a lower than the per se limit.

    On the other hand, I've seen a good lawyer blast away at a prosecution without a chemical test and prevail as well.
    I agree that this thread is beyond the original topic. I think you would also agree that if a person fought a DUI in court, that the prosecution would have much more than the officer's observation of a FST, or lack thereof. He would have the testimony of where the defendant came from, what other witnesses observed of the defendant, whether he was drinking, there might have been a traffic accident, injured people, etc. It would ALL be used against him...not just observation at the scene. So it is impossible to say what evidence convicted him.

    All I am saying is that the prosecution would have much more evidence than a FST or the defendant sitting on the curb refusing all interaction.

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