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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
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    7,052

    Default Re: Building Permit a Neighbor Put Up a Steel Garage Snow Dumps on My Property

    Quote Quoting Jean5720
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    This is in Michigan.

    My neighbor put up what he calls a "Temporary Garage" which is about 25 x 35 feet long 10 feet in height at the sidewalls, without a permit. The building is on a gravel pad and is about 18 inches (sidewall) from our property line which has a boundry fence on it which we erected on our side of the property. We put up the fence due to encroachment and tresspassing issues. The overhange of the roof is about 8 inches from the property line and fence. The roof slopes so that the snow will fall on and over the east-west property line onto our property and on top of our fence. We had our property surveyed before we put up the fence and the survey markers are in place. There is one survey marker next to the building which the neighbor put up which I base my measurements for the building's distance from the property line. This building is within 500 feet of a body of water.

    We complained to the local building/zoning office about the building and the zoning department issued the neighbor a building permit retrospectively. I am baffled that the zoning office would issue a permit that would allow the roof to dump what will be tons of snow on my property and driveway and will crush our fence and any vehicle parked there. We have a steel building on our property and last winter the snow piles were at least 5 feet high and 8 feet across (compacted) where the snow basically slides off the roof with a great deal of force I have contacted the zoning office to ask them how they could retrospectively issue a permit for this building that will literally dump tons of snow on my property. Crickets. We contacted the neighbor and told them of our concern about the snow. They now run and hide whenever they see us. Advice please.
    There is a very inexpensive solution to the problem that folks in snow regions know about when they have metal roofs. They are roof snow guards that are installed on the roof and prevent the snow from sliding. They come in metal or plastic and are just screwed to the roof in a designated pattern. Google snow guards for metal roofs and you will find hundreds of hits. Ask your neighbor to install them on your side of the building or offer to buy them for the neighbor. That will cost you a whole lot less than an attorney and all your time perusing it.


    Quote Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    . There are strict codes requiring all water drainage to be carried out to the street. Water drainage cannot run across a neighbor's property, whether its your side or back neighbor. That is code in at least CA.
    Once again you are making stuff up. It is always interesting that you never link to the ordinance or code that you say exists. And what you posted here is not correct.

    This is the CA code (and it is the plumbing code):
    1101.2 Where Required

    Roofs, paved areas, yards, courts, courtyards, vent shafts, light wells, or similar areas having rainwater, shall be drained into a separate storm sewer system, or into a combined sewer system where a separate storm sewer system is not available, or to some other place of disposal satisfactory to the Authority Having Jurisdiction. In the case of one- and two-family dwellings, storm water shall be permitted to be discharged on flat areas, such as streets or lawns, so long as the storm water shall flow away from the building and away from adjoining property, and shall not create a nuisance[.
    https://up.codes/viewer/california/c...rm-drainage#11

    And under common law, you can't change the natural flow of storm water from one property to another. In other words, the water on an uphill property will flow to a downhill property.

    This thread is not about storm water runoff. It is about snow sliding off a roof. How do you equate that a snow melt is storm water runoff?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    735

    Default Re: Building Permit a Neighbor Put Up a Steel Garage Snow Dumps on My Property

    Quote Quoting budwad
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    Once again you are making stuff up. It is always interesting that you never link to the ordinance or code that you say exists. And what you posted here is not correct.

    This is the CA code (and it is the plumbing code):

    https://up.codes/viewer/california/c...rm-drainage#11

    And under common law, you can't change the natural flow of storm water from one property to another. In other words, the water on an uphill property will flow to a downhill property.

    This thread is not about storm water runoff. It is about snow sliding off a roof. How do you equate that a snow melt is storm water runoff?
    Re-read what you highlighted in red. It clears says that any improved area like a roof or driveway must drain to the street, not onto a neighbor's property. Sure, unimproved areas like untouched acreage can flow rainwater onto another property as nature dictates. So, show me the link that says a new structure can be designed such that it dumps snow onto a neighbor's property?

    I do not provide links because you guys like to think it is the end of story. Just look at your link, it supports what I said, and you think it says otherwise. So just how valuable is it?

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
    View Post
    Then perhaps you should solve your own problems rather than coming here and insulting those whom you ask for help. You're clearly smart enough, right?
    We all have our areas of expertise. The OP is likely very smart and intelligent but he/she is out of their expertise, which is why he/she came here. Also, if a person responds here, it should be because they possess that expertise to advise. Not knowing the weight of snow is ignorance of common facts. So correcting that ignorance is deserved, not "insulting."

    I work for folks that can calculate the torsional strength of a 2x4, but they do not know how to cut, nail or use one in a house...which is why they hire me. If a senior member here responds, he/she opens themselves up to criticism. No free passes!

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    47.606 N 122.332 W in body, still at 90 S in my mind.
    Posts
    1,676

    Default Re: Building Permit a Neighbor Put Up a Steel Garage Snow Dumps on My Property

    Quote Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    We all have our areas of expertise. The OP is likely very smart and intelligent but he/she is out of their expertise, which is why he/she came here. Also, if a person responds here, it should be because they possess that expertise to advise. Not knowing the weight of snow is ignorance of common facts. So correcting that ignorance is deserved, not "insulting."

    I work for folks that can calculate the torsional strength of a 2x4, but they do not know how to cut, nail or use one in a house...which is why they hire me. If a senior member here responds, he/she opens themselves up to criticism. No free passes!
    The weight of snow, legally, is not in question. The neighbor was granted a permit for the temporary structure. This leave the OP with few options other than retaining an attorney to try and do something about it in the courts.

    The OP has been rude regarding sidebar conversations happening regarding snow load and made it quite clear that since none of us are engineers we are not qualified to discuss this aspect regardless of experience. Since experience is in question I'm shocked that you are standing in the corner of expertise given your prating about experience trumps expertise.

    The OP is welcome to join in the sidebar conversations but no one has to tolerate outright rudeness.nIf I'm wrong I have no problem saying it and I've certainly been wrong here and copped. Again, you've been wrong here often and rant on trying to defend an indefensible position.

    FYI, the required design load for a roof in MI is 60psf but that applies to permanent structures that are subject to inspection. Temporary structures are only permitted to be erected for 180 days. The OP may have a leg to stand on here but will have to wait until the permit runs out. or 6 months have elapsed.

    Guess what. I Googled this information, something you routinely mock. My area of expertise applies peripherally but I'm unfamiliar with MI codes so I need to obtain the legal information. The OP doesn't mention the AHJ for their region so I'm sticking with the state rules.

    Again, the OP is welcome to lodge a complaint with e authority having jurisdiction (AHJ, should've cleared that up earlier) and if the AHJ is unresponsive they will have to peruse legal action by hiring an attorney.

    Strange! I'd expect an OP who has a few hard science degrees to be able to find the relevant info themselves and to be a better writer. After all, science is as much about presenting your findings, in writing, as gathering the data and being able to interpret it.
    "Where do those stairs go?"
    "They go up!"

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    157

    Default Re: Building Permit a Neighbor Put Up a Steel Garage Snow Dumps on My Property

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    Another example of a guy in need that comes here for advice and just gets jacked around by the EL Clique.

    You should be ashamed of yourselves...but it clear that you enjoy doing this to folks.
    Hi Harold! Long time no see. When did they let you out?

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    735

    Default Re: Building Permit a Neighbor Put Up a Steel Garage Snow Dumps on My Property

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
    View Post
    The weight of snow, legally, is not in question. The neighbor was granted a permit for the temporary structure. This leave the OP with few options other than retaining an attorney to try and do something about it in the courts.
    The weight of the snow is of great concern because it makes it more dangerous and destructive. Bigger roof, more the snow, and more the damage and clean-up.

    So what if he was granted a permit. File a complaint and for the city to explain if they were within their codes and guidelines. No attorney or courtroom necessary.

    The OP has been rude regarding sidebar conversations happening regarding snow load and made it quite clear that since none of us are engineers we are not qualified to discuss this aspect regardless of experience. Since experience is in question I'm shocked that you are standing in the corner of expertise given your prating about experience trumps expertise.
    At least five of the frontline posters here are rude out of the gate. Have you ever reprimanded them? NO!

    The internet will tell the weight of snow. No degrees needed. As for experience, that is what I am touting again. I have never seen water run-off allowed to empty onto an adjacent property. Hillsides yes, man-made structured, NO! I am assuming snowshed is no different.

    The OP is welcome to join in the sidebar conversations but no one has to tolerate outright rudeness.nIf I'm wrong I have no problem saying it and I've certainly been wrong here and copped. Again, you've been wrong here often and rant on trying to defend an indefensible position.
    Then you should be in favor of the front-liner's rude remarks as a disqualification process. Yes?

    vFYI, the required design load for a roof in MI is 60psf but that applies to permanent structures that are subject to inspection. Temporary structures are only permitted to be erected for 180 days. The OP may have a leg to stand on here but will have to wait until the permit runs out. or 6 months have elapsed.
    No need to wait for damage or to see if he will move the garage before 180 days. File the complaint and demand answers NOW!

    Again, the OP is welcome to lodge a complaint with e authority having jurisdiction (AHJ, should've cleared that up earlier) and if the AHJ is unresponsive they will have to peruse legal action by hiring an attorney.
    Sure, the OP can always do whatever he wants. But hiring a lawyer is the far, far extent of this problem. Not the first as some suggest.

    Strange! I'd expect an OP who has a few hard science degrees to be able to find the relevant info themselves and to be a better writer. After all, science is as much about presenting your findings, in writing, as gathering the data and being able to interpret it.
    I am sure the OP thought he/she would get insightful advice, not a bunch of bashers who like to prey on suckers.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    47.606 N 122.332 W in body, still at 90 S in my mind.
    Posts
    1,676

    Default Re: Building Permit a Neighbor Put Up a Steel Garage Snow Dumps on My Property

    Quote Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    The weight of the snow is of great concern because it makes it more dangerous and destructive. Bigger roof, more the snow, and more the damage and clean-up.

    So what if he was granted a permit. File a complaint and for the city to explain if they were within their codes and guidelines. No attorney or courtroom necessary.



    At least five of the frontline posters here are rude out of the gate. Have you ever reprimanded them? NO!

    The internet will tell the weight of snow. No degrees needed. As for experience, that is what I am touting again. I have never seen water run-off allowed to empty onto an adjacent property. Hillsides yes, man-made structured, NO! I am assuming snowshed is no different.



    Then you should be in favor of the front-liner's rude remarks as a disqualification process. Yes?



    No need to wait for damage or to see if he will move the garage before 180 days. File the complaint and demand answers NOW!



    Sure, the OP can always do whatever he wants. But hiring a lawyer is the far, far extent of this problem. Not the first as some suggest.



    I am sure the OP thought he/she would get insightful advice, not a bunch of bashers who like to prey on suckers.
    Again, Harold, your reading comprehension skills, such as they are, are outpaced by your need to attack the other posters here. Also, your bar for what is and what is not rude seems to shift depending who's talking. It certainly doesn't apply to you.

    I am not the only one who said an attorney may be the best course BUT since there was a permit issued the OP may be stuck waiting out the 90 days before filing a complaint but it still requires the AHJ to act otherwise it will be a court battle between theOP and the AHJ to compel action. The OP will have to wait until there is damage before they have a leg to stand on with the neighbor.
    "Where do those stairs go?"
    "They go up!"

  7. #27

    Default Re: Building Permit a Neighbor Put Up a Steel Garage Snow Dumps on My Property

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
    View Post
    Then perhaps you should solve your own problems rather than coming here and insulting those whom you ask for help. You're clearly smart enough, right?
    How many times have the "Experts" insulted me? I guess because you consider yourselves Experts and above us lowly people you have a right to insult the people who post here.
    I came here for legal advice and have gotten bashed and have gotten no useful advice from people who don't have a grasp of the problem. I will solve my own problem because the "Experts" use this forum as a source of amusement while offering no useful advice. I could have gone down the street to the corner bar asked the guy in the bar who plows snow part-time who didn't finish high school what course of action I should take and I would have the gotten better advice than I got here and he would have been respectful about it and he would understand the problem. I thought I was on a forum that gave legal advice. But clearly, people who post on this forum just fodder for the "Experts" amusement.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    735

    Default Re: Building Permit a Neighbor Put Up a Steel Garage Snow Dumps on My Property

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
    View Post
    Again, Harold, your reading comprehension skills, such as they are, are outpaced by your need to attack the other posters here. Also, your bar for what is and what is not rude seems to shift depending who's talking. It certainly doesn't apply to you.

    I am not the only one who said an attorney may be the best course BUT since there was a permit issued the OP may be stuck waiting out the 90 days before filing a complaint but it still requires the AHJ to act otherwise it will be a court battle between theOP and the AHJ to compel action. The OP will have to wait until there is damage before they have a leg to stand on with the neighbor.
    I disagree. Non-conformance is not permitted, with or without damage.

    Quote Quoting Jean5720
    View Post
    How many times have the "Experts" insulted me? I guess because you consider yourselves Experts and above us lowly people you have a right to insult the people who post here.
    I came here for legal advice and have gotten bashed and have gotten no useful advice from people who don't have a grasp of the problem. I will solve my own problem because the "Experts" use this forum as a source of amusement while offering no useful advice. I could have gone down the street to the corner bar asked the guy in the bar who plows snow part-time who didn't finish high school what course of action I should take and I would have the gotten better advice than I got here and he would have been respectful about it and he would understand the problem. I thought I was on a forum that gave legal advice. But clearly, people who post on this forum just fodder for the "Experts" amusement.
    ...As the Expert Law Rude Crew gets their a$$es handed to them again.

    And what do they do? They run and hide behind their computer screens.

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