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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    8,125

    Default Re: Banned from Mailbox

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    Having absolute control over something is effectively owning it. A rental car is effectively owned by the renter. A prisoner is effectively owned by the prison system. If not, please define 'effectively owned.'
    Effectively owned in a legal sense would be having pretty much the same bundle of rights that an owner has. Thus a rental car is NOT effectively owned by the renter. He has possession of it, but does not have all he same rights that the owner of the vehicle has. You can have some other definition of the term, but that doesn't help the OP with a legal problem.

    Quote Quoting budwad
    View Post
    One last comment on mail box ownership. While you may own your mail box it is under the control of the federal government once it is approved. Therefore, it really doesn't matter who owns it.
    As I said before, the USPS has rules for the placement and design of the mailboxes, analogous to building codes for a home. There are also statutes like the one you cited that penalize the damaging of mailboxes and the theft or destruction of the mail, much like state and local laws against vandalism, destruction, and theft of property. But it does matter who owns them because the USPS does not have complete control over a mailbox you own as it does over the ones it owns. Though there are clearly rules that apply to mailboxes the laws and USPS rules as they apply to private mailboxes are not as extensive as you and Harold make them out to be.

    In any event, it obvious that the mailbox set up itself meets with USPS approval as it is delivering the mail to the house the OP lives in. The only change here is that the homeowner is taking the mail once delivered and distributing to the OP rather than the OP getting the mail out of the box himself. There is no federal crime committed by the homeowner in doing that. The homeowner is not stealing the mail nor, in the words of the statute you cited, does the homeowner maliciously injure, deface, or destroy the mail deposited in the mailbox. Nor is what the homeowner is doing affecting or changing the way the carrier delivers the mail to the place. From the USPS perspective nothing has changed for the postal service and the OP is still getting his mail. Given that, while the OP is certainly free to complain about the homeowner to the USPS about this, I suspect that the USPS really won't care. Still, a complaint to the local postmaster is free and there is an off chance the postmaster might talk to the homeowner about it and get things to change.

    If the USPS doesn't care then whether the OP might have some legal remedy depends on the answers to the questions I asked earlier, which so far he/she has not come back to answer. Even if there is some legal remedy, the cost and time to pursue it might not be appealing to the OP. In the end it is likely to come down to how well the OP can negotiate some acceptable arrangement with the homeowner that the two of them can live with.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    425

    Default Re: Banned from Mailbox

    Quote Quoting RJR
    I have to disagree with that my board friend. I can leave a letter in a persons home mailbox or any such mail receptacle as long as I have affixed proper postage. No postage, then it becomes a criminal offense.

    Quote Quoting budwad
    Don't forget to cancel the stamp and initial it. But that seems a pretty silly thing to do when if you have mail pick-up you just let the carrier take it.
    I was simply referring to 18 USC 1725.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1725

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    595

    Default Re: Banned from Mailbox

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
    View Post
    Effectively owned in a legal sense would be having pretty much the same bundle of rights that an owner has. Thus a rental car is NOT effectively owned by the renter. He has possession of it, but does not have all he same rights that the owner of the vehicle has. You can have some other definition of the term, but that doesn't help the OP with a legal problem.

    As I said before, the USPS has rules for the placement and design of the mailboxes, analogous to building codes for a home. There are also statutes like the one you cited that penalize the damaging of mailboxes and the theft or destruction of the mail, much like state and local laws against vandalism, destruction, and theft of property. But it does matter who owns them because the USPS does not have complete control over a mailbox you own as it does over the ones it owns. Though there are clearly rules that apply to mailboxes the laws and USPS rules as they apply to private mailboxes are not as extensive as you and Harold make them out to be.

    In any event, it obvious that the mailbox set up itself meets with USPS approval as it is delivering the mail to the house the OP lives in. The only change here is that the homeowner is taking the mail once delivered and distributing to the OP rather than the OP getting the mail out of the box himself. There is no federal crime committed by the homeowner in doing that. The homeowner is not stealing the mail nor, in the words of the statute you cited, does the homeowner maliciously injure, deface, or destroy the mail deposited in the mailbox. Nor is what the homeowner is doing affecting or changing the way the carrier delivers the mail to the place. From the USPS perspective nothing has changed for the postal service and the OP is still getting his mail. Given that, while the OP is certainly free to complain about the homeowner to the USPS about this, I suspect that the USPS really won't care. Still, a complaint to the local postmaster is free and there is an off chance the postmaster might talk to the homeowner about it and get things to change.

    If the USPS doesn't care then whether the OP might have some legal remedy depends on the answers to the questions I asked earlier, which so far he/she has not come back to answer. Even if there is some legal remedy, the cost and time to pursue it might not be appealing to the OP. In the end it is likely to come down to how well the OP can negotiate some acceptable arrangement with the homeowner that the two of them can live with.
    Semantics.

    A common lawyer's arguing tactic is to discredit the other party in hopes that the listeners (juries or the like) will automatically give credit to the one doing the discrediting. Comedians do the same thing, which make them funnier and wittier, when what they say is often not based in absolute truth.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    4,210

    Default Re: Banned from Mailbox

    Quote Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    Semantics.

    A common lawyer's arguing tactic is to discredit the other party in hopes of the listeners (juries or the like) will automatically give credit to the one doing the discrediting. Comedians do the same thing, which make them funnier and wittier, when what they say is often not based in absolute truth.
    You are so full of crap.

    You are the one that brought up definitions of words.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    595

    Default Re: Banned from Mailbox

    Quote Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post
    You are so full of crap.

    You are the one that brought up definitions of words.
    If 'own' only means monetary ownership to you, then believe on. We all have a choice to believe whomever we wish.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    4,210

    Default Re: Banned from Mailbox

    Quote Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    If 'own' only means monetary ownership to you, then believe on. We all have a choice to believe whomever we wish.
    Words mean things.

    And I see you just skipped https://www.expertlaw.com/forums/sho...13#post1138213

    that had some questions for you regarding ownership

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    595

    Default Re: Banned from Mailbox

    Quote Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post
    own·er·ship
    /ˈōnərˌSHip/
    noun
    noun: ownership; plural noun: ownerships
    the act, state, or right of possessing something.
    "the ownership of land"

    The USPS has no right to take my mailbox. I am free to take my mailbox and do what I want with it including destroying it. The USPS does not have that right.

    Does your state "own" your car? They have some significant legal control over how you use it?

    Did the Federal government own the airplane I used? They have the right to tell me how I can and can't use it. They had the power to tell me who could work on it.
    Webster definition:

    The second definition is: "to have power or mastery over."

    Now do your lawyermouthing and tell me that up is not up and down is not down. Oh, and words to a lawyer mean nothing. Words just give them something to play with...which is why I would never talk to one that could get over on me again.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    4,210

    Default Re: Banned from Mailbox

    Quote Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    Webster definition:

    The second definition is: "to have power or mastery over."

    Now do your lawyermouthing and tell me that up is not up and down is not down. Oh, and words to a lawyer mean nothing. Words just give them something to play with...which is why I would never talk to one that could get over on me again.
    But the USPS has no power or mastery over my mailbox. I can throw it away when I get home if I like.

    So I guess you are still just going to ignore this part...

    Does your state "own" your car? They have some significant legal control over how you use it.

    Did the Federal government own the airplane I used? They have the right to tell me how I can and can't use it. They had the power to tell me who could work on it.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    595

    Default Re: Banned from Mailbox

    Quote Quoting PayrolGuy
    View Post
    But the USPS has no power or mastery over my mailbox.
    Yes, they do!

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    4,210

    Default Re: Banned from Mailbox

    Quote Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    Yes, they do!
    Nope, they don't. They can control what goes into it but it pretty much stops there.

    I'd say the state and federal governments have much more power over a car or an airplane than the USPS has over my mailbox.

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