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  1. #151
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    Default Re: Is Driving a Privilege or a Right

    Edward, get some sleep, you'll feel better to take on the Boys.

  2. #152
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    Default Re: Is Driving a Privilege or a Right

    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    I will dispute that my automobile meets the definition of a motor vehicle. That's a fact issue. Does my vehicle, in fact, meet the definitions.
    No, that's a legal issue. The relevant facts aren't in dispute: whatever kind of car you were driving is already established. Whether that car meets the definition of a "motor vehicle" in the Tennessee code simply requires applying that state law definition to that car. That application of the law to a particular set of facts is a legal matter for the judge, not an issue for jury.

    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    There aren't any laws that says it does.
    Actually, there are. I've pointed them out before.

    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    You say " What you are missing is that the courts have clearly said that you don't have a constitutional right to drive a car free of a license requirement. The federal case law is clear that states may indeed require licenses to drive an auto on the roads."

    But I say " By federal definition in US code: 382.107 Definitions
    Commerce means:
    Edward, you need to understand a very important concept: definitions found in federal statutes only apply for the purposes of federal law, not state law. States provide their own definitions for their laws. Federal law does not dictate to the states which persons they can and cannot license to drive. Your reliance on these federal definitions is misplaced.

    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    All of your court cases are easily disposed of. One mentions infringement of the "right to travel". I agree with it. There are many ways to travel. But they use the term "motor vehicle" which I show as commercial. "Drive a motor vehicle" is commercial.
    Nothing in either federal or Tennessee law restricts the term motor vehicle to commercial activity as I have explained before.

    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    The use of property is a right. Liberty is a right. Travel is a right. Commercial use of property is a "privilege".
    And travel by car is a privilege too. Moreover, the law is clear that the states may indeed regulate use of property and travel. Your rights with respect to those things are not unlimited.

    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    If you're unable to see past their double talk...you've not been around enough.
    It's you who lacks experience. I've been lawyer for over 20 years. I'm well versed in researching and analyzing the law, and I see the mistakes you are making. I've also seen lots of people over the years try to argue the same kind of things you've been arguing in this thread, and all of them lost spectacularly. I don't see you faring any better. If no one has won on these kinds of arguments in all the years states have required licenses, what makes you think you'll do better?

    I have a suggestion for you. If you still have the time under the Tennessee rules of procedure to file a motion to dismiss, do that and put in all these legal arguments you want to make. If you are right, the court will dismiss your case and you won't even have to show for trial. If you're wrong, the court will say that, in which case you can then scrap your current arguments and come up with a new plan that might fare better. Like seeing a lawyer to represent you on these charges, which is really what you should have done at the outset.


    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    I'm seriously considering going to the FBI office next week. So we'll see.
    You can do that. I guarantee that nothing will come of that, though,as the state has not committed any federal crime in prosecuting you for the misdemeanor license charge.

    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    Last post for a while.
    Well, good luck to you. Let us know the outcome of the trial.

  3. #153
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    Oct 2016
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    Default Re: Is Driving a Privilege or a Right

    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    AGAIN, I'm not using "sovereign citizen" defense!
    It really doesn't matter what YOU call it. It is the same BS that has become known as the "sovereign citizen defense." Though not saying "sovereign citizen" in court would likely be a good move.

    And motor vehicle is defined in Title 55

    55-1-103
    (c) “Motor vehicle” means every vehicle that is self-propelled, excluding motorized bicycles and every vehicle that is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires.  “Motor vehicle” means any low speed vehicle, or medium speed vehicle as defined in this chapter.  “Motor vehicle” means any mobile home or house trailer as defined in  55-1-105 .

  4. #154
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    Default Re: Is Driving a Privilege or a Right

    Taxing Matters, I mentioned the federal definition because you mentioned federal cases. If it's a federal case, then federal definitions should be used. At least it seems like it to me.

  5. #155
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    Default Re: Is Driving a Privilege or a Right

    It's not a federal case. You're fighting the state of Tennessee over their charges.

    Even in the case of federal prosecutions, often a defintion in one statute or regulation only applies to that that particular section of the massive federal body of law. For example, the definiton:

    (6)Motor vehicle.—
    The term “motor vehicle” means every description of carriage or other contrivance propelled or drawn by mechanical power and used for commercial purposes on the highways in the transportation of passengers, passengers and property, or property or cargo.


    is prefaced by the words "In this chapter, the following definitions apply." This means that the above definition doesn't apply to all federal law and/or regulations, but only to Chapter 2 of Title 18.

  6. #156
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    Default Re: Is Driving a Privilege or a Right

    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    It's not a federal case. You're fighting the state of Tennessee over their charges.
    I was referring to the federal cases mentioned by Taxing Matters.

  7. #157
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    Default Re: Is Driving a Privilege or a Right

    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    Taxing Matters, I mentioned the federal definition because you mentioned federal cases. If it's a federal case, then federal definitions should be used. At least it seems like it to me.
    I cited federal cases with regard to the U.S. CONSTITUTIONAL issues. Federal courts of appeals and the U.S. Supreme Court are the authority for what the federal constitution means.

    But definitions in a federal statute only apply for the purposes of the federal law that contains that definition. Definitions in a federal statute do not apply to a state statute. The state is free to define the terms in its statutes any way it wishes. So when determining what "motor vehicle" in the Tennessee Code means the definitions you find in federal statute are worthless. You instead have to determine that based on how the Tennessee courts have interpreted that definition or, in the absence of a decision directly on point, you simply use the ordinary English meaning for the words. And the ordinary meaning for "transport" in the Tennessee Code would include a passenger car driven for pleasure since in ordinary English such a car does indeed transport persons and things. This is why I think you'll lose on that issue. You are trying to use definitions that don't apply to the Tennessee Motor Vehicle statutes to try to define the term the way that you want rather than looking at what the meaning of the statute is on its own. Federal statute definitions and definitions you find outside the Tennessee motor statutes (i.e. definitions you find outside Title 55 of the Tennessee Code) are irrelevant to determining the meanings of "vehicle" and "motor vehicle" in TC 55-1-103. You need to look at Tennessee cases that specifically interpret the definitions in that section and to the extent there are no such cases then the ordinary meaning of the words in that section. That's it.

    Trying to limit the definition by using terms defined for some other statute won't work. Those other statutes are designed to accomplish different things, and thus define terms to accomplish those goals. That means that the term "motor vehicle" has different meanings for each of the statutes that define it to suit the needs of that statute. There is not one single definition that applies for the purposes of every federal and state statute that uses the term.

  8. #158
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    Default Re: Is Driving a Privilege or a Right

    Wouldn't a federal case use the federal definitions?

  9. #159
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    Default Re: Is Driving a Privilege or a Right

    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    Wouldn't a federal case use the federal definitions?
    Not if the federal court was weighing the constitutionality of a state statute. It would look to see how the state defines the terms of its statute to determine how the state statute operates, and then from there decide if how the state statute operates violates the Constitution.

  10. #160
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    Default Re: Is Driving a Privilege or a Right

    Taxing, by what I read in Scalia's book and elsewhere, the common definition is use, but it also says the common legal definitions. As a common lawyer would read it. And passenger is one who pays, making it commercial, by passenger cases and Black's.

    53. Canon of Imputed Common-Law Meaning
    A statute that uses a common-law term, without defining it, adopts its common-law meaning.
    The age-old principle is that words undefined in a statute are to be interpreted and applied according to their common-law meanings. This principle has been
    applied to such terms as assault,1 child,2 defraud,3 estate,4 forge,5 fraud,6 nextof-kin,7 and record of conviction.8 Even though federal law has no common-law
    criminal offenses—all federal offenses having been created by statute—the federal courts still look to common-law meaning.9
    52. Presumption Against Change in Common Law. A statute
    will be construed to alter the common law only when that
    disposition is clear.
    53. Canon of Imputed Common-Law Meaning. A statute that
    uses a common-law term, without defining it, adopts its
    common-law meaning.
    54. Prior-Construction Canon. If a statute uses words or phrases
    that have already received authoritative construction by the
    jurisdiction’s court of last resort, or even uniform
    construction by inferior courts or a responsible
    administrative agency, they are to be understood according
    to that construction.
    55. Presumption Against Implied Repeal. Repeals

    Try using these canons with the following definitions.

    Black's 9th
    vehicle (vee-a-bl), n. 1. An instrument of transportation or conveyance. 2. Any conveyance used in transporting
    passengers or things by land, water, or air.

    transportation, n. (l6c) 1. The movement of goods or persons from one place to another by a carrier. 2.
    Criminal law. A type of punishment that sends the criminal out of the country to another place (usu. a
    penal colony) for a specified period. Cf. DEPORTATION

    convey, vb. (14c) To transfer or deliver (something, such as a right or property) to another, esp. by deed or other
    writing; esp., to perform an act that is intended to create one or more property interests, regardless of whether
    the act is actually effective to create those interests.

    conveyance (bn-vay-ants), n. (iSc) 1. The voluntary transfer of a right or of property.

    draw, vb. (13c) 1. To create and sign (a draft) <draw a check to purchase goods>. 2. To prepare or frame
    (a legal document) <draw up a will>.

    TCA 55-3-104
    (d) “Truck tractor” means every motor vehicle designed and used primarily for drawing other vehicles and not so constructed as to carry a load other than a part of the weight of the vehicle and load so drawn.

    TCA 55-3-103
    (e) “Vehicle” and “freight motor vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, excepting devices moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks.

    Commercial Terms. Drawn is used with “Truck tractor”, which is of course commercial.

    TCA also defines "Commerce" as Trade, traffic and transportation. So anything that is transported is a part of transportation. And is commercial.

    Motor Vehicle is a word that has been used in Supreme Court rulings, as mentioned in the Iowa case, and used as commercial. So See: Prior-Construction Canon. If a statute uses words or phrases that have already received authoritative construction by the jurisdiction’s court of last resort, or even uniform construction by inferior courts or a responsible administrative agency, they are to be understood according to that construction.

    All State motor vehicle laws are based off an original Motor Vehicle Act which defined motor vehicle as commercial.

    Opps...forgot to mention....A Will is an instrument of conveyance. So a will..or a document is a vehicle.

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