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  1. #51
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    Default Re: While Driving My Motorcycle Someone Turned in Front of Me

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    That law either does not apply to bicycles or it is illegal for a bike to ever go faster than the stopped traffic on his left.
    Again, though, Harold, the OP was not on a bicycle. He was on a motorcycle:

    Quote Quoting LawLearner
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    I am riding a small motorcycle down a one lane street. I decided to ride close to his right side for a few seconds, kind of like passing him on his right side to avoid being seen by someone in another car in the opposite lane.
    (Bolding added.) So the OP had to follow the rules for motorcycles. Under the laws of NY, motorcycle drivers are held to almost all of the same laws that car drivers are. See NY Vehicle and Traffic Law (VTL) § 1250, which states:

    § 1250. Traffic laws apply to persons operating motorcycles. Every person operating a motorcycle shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of any other vehicle under this title, except as to special regulations in this article and except as to those provisions of this title which by their nature can have no application.

    As to use of the lanes in NY, VTL § 1252 states the following:

    § 1252. Operating motorcycles on roadways laned for traffic. (a) All motorcycles are entitled to full use of a lane and no motor vehicle or motorcycle shall be driven in such a manner as to deprive any motorcycle of the full use of a lane. However, this subsection shall not beconstrued to prevent motorcycles from being operated two abreast in as single lane.

    (b) The operator of a motorcycle shall not overtake and pass in the same lane occupied by the vehicle being overtaken.

    (c) No person shall operate a motorcycle between lanes of traffic or between adjacent lines or rows of vehicles.


    (d) Motorcycles shall not be operated more than two abreast in asingle lane.

    (e) Subsections (b) and (c) shall not apply to police officers in theperformance of their official duties.

    (Bolding added). As you can see from the bolded subsections (b) & (c), a motorcycle in NY may NOT pass a vehicle in the same lane as the other vehicle nor may a motorcycle operate between lanes of traffic. So the OP was violating this section by being in the position he was. Thus, as I said earlier, he was in a spot he was not supposed to be, and thus at least part of the fault here lies with the OP.


    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    Further, I'd say about one third of the vehicle code applies to bicycles.
    In your state that may be true. I haven't looked. But in NY, as it applies to motorcycles, about 99% of the vehicle code does apply to them.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: While Driving My Motorcycle Someone Turned in Front of Me

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    Again, though, Harold, the OP was not on a bicycle. He was on a motorcycle:



    (Bolding added.) So the OP had to follow the rules for motorcycles. Under the laws of NY, motorcycle drivers are held to almost all of the same laws that car drivers are. See NY Vehicle and Traffic Law (VTL) § 1250, which states:

    § 1250. Traffic laws apply to persons operating motorcycles. Every person operating a motorcycle shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of any other vehicle under this title, except as to special regulations in this article and except as to those provisions of this title which by their nature can have no application.

    As to use of the lanes in NY, VTL § 1252 states the following:

    § 1252. Operating motorcycles on roadways laned for traffic. (a) All motorcycles are entitled to full use of a lane and no motor vehicle or motorcycle shall be driven in such a manner as to deprive any motorcycle of the full use of a lane. However, this subsection shall not beconstrued to prevent motorcycles from being operated two abreast in as single lane.

    (b) The operator of a motorcycle shall not overtake and pass in the same lane occupied by the vehicle being overtaken.

    (c) No person shall operate a motorcycle between lanes of traffic or between adjacent lines or rows of vehicles.


    (d) Motorcycles shall not be operated more than two abreast in asingle lane.

    (e) Subsections (b) and (c) shall not apply to police officers in theperformance of their official duties.

    (Bolding added). As you can see from the bolded subsections (b) & (c), a motorcycle in NY may NOT pass a vehicle in the same lane as the other vehicle nor may a motorcycle operate between lanes of traffic. So the OP was violating this section by being in the position he was. Thus, as I said earlier, he was in a spot he was not supposed to be, and thus at least part of the fault here lies with the OP.




    In your state that may be true. I haven't looked. But in NY, as it applies to motorcycles, about 99% of the vehicle code does apply to them.
    He was on an e-bike, which is a bicycle. Actually, any bike with an engine under 50cc is considered a bicycle.

    Refer to post 12.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: While Driving My Motorcycle Someone Turned in Front of Me

    Again, though, Harold, the OP was not on a bicycle. He was on a motorcycle:
    TM, T=the OP did clarify, later, that he was on an electric bicycle. That said...

    I can certainly empathize with Harold regarding some of the murkiness revolving around bicycles and how they interact with cars. That said, There is no rule in NY that I can find that explicitly permits bicycles to cruise by standing traffic on the right. It's a practice that cyclists had adopted and has been tacitly accepted. When I do employ this tactic I'm certainly not doing it at 20 mph so as to protect myself from being "doored" or having some random driver turn into me from the left. Cruising down that narrow cleft between the parked cars and the stopped traffic is where I may exercise the most care. Alas, that's not what happened to the OP.

    What I see here, in Seattle, is an electric bike/vehicle free for all. With the exception of cars, electric vehicles are effectively unregulated. This becomes an issue, in my eyes, when some of these fast moving vehicles (the single wheeled devices, electric skateboards, scooters, etc) are making use of bike and footpaths while traveling along at high speeds and the like with no regard for anyone around them. This, I believe will incite some serious controls being proposed and implemented. At the same time, I see some very fast electric bicycles that can match car speeds on surface streets passing cars on the right, at speed, because they're bicycles and the operators feel that the typical rules don't apply...which is what it sounds like was happening here.

    Regardless of the vehicle the OP was riding, based on his description, he chose to not operate it in a safe manner and the three reason that it's permitted to pass on the right (there are no exclusions carved out anywhere for hiding from oncoming traffic) are not in play based on his description.

    As has been said, it's not really going to matter, though. This will play out through the insurance companies (or company if the OP has no insurance that would be applicable) and through the civil courts if it gets that far.

    If we want to have a rousing discussion regarding traffic laws as the pertain to bicycles, the history or the paved road and the like I'm down. I have a lot to say and I'd likely agree with Harold more than I'd like but this topic is pretty played out and is in serious danger of being hijacked.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: While Driving My Motorcycle Someone Turned in Front of Me

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    Wouldn't you like to have a claims adjuster like Jack? No matter how you wrecked your car, it would be your fault. You died? Tough sh!t. ...Wonder how many paying customers he screwed in his career out of pure hatred of society. Wonder how many people will get screwed by that Liberty Mutual lawyer that screwed me? Difference between the two [Jack and that lawyer} is that Jack did it out of hatred and stupidity. That lawyer did it out of ego and power. Yet similar paths of evil.
    Right, Harold. You can't talk sense, talk nonsense.

    smh

  5. #55
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    Default Re: While Driving My Motorcycle Someone Turned in Front of Me

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    He was on an e-bike, which is a bicycle. Actually, any bike with an engine under 50cc is considered a bicycle.

    Refer to post 12.
    Thanks. I didn't see that. In that case, the applicable rules are that, like motorcycles, bicycles are subject to the same rules as all other vehicles except as provided by the rules that are specific to bikes. VTL § 1231. Like the law for motorcycles, there is a specific rule for where bikes are allowed to be in VTL § 1234(a):

    (a) Upon all roadways, any bicycle or in-line skate shall be driven either on a usable bicycle or in-line skate lane or, if a usable bicycle or in-line skate lane has not been provided, near the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway or upon a usable right-hand shoulder in such a manner as to prevent undue interference with the flow of traffic except when preparing for a left turn or when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions that would make it unsafe to continue along near the right-hand curb or edge. Conditions to be taken into consideration include, but are not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, in-line skates, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or traffic lanes too narrow for a bicycle or person on in-line skates and a vehicle to travel safely side-by-side within the lane.

    So, here if it went to trial what degree of fault the OP would get lot depends in part on what position the jury is convinced the OP was in and whether he was "near the right hand curb or edge of the roadway" and whether the OP properly took into account whether his position was too narrow for the bicycle and vehicle to travel "safely side by side within the lane." So it may well make a considerable difference which side does the better job of persuading the jury as to how dangerous his actions were. And part of that calculus will be any bias for or against bicyclists the jury members have. If you were on the jury you seemingly would automatically give a pass to the bicyclist no matter how close he was to the car, perhaps due to being an avid cyclist yourself and being a bit ticked off that you lost your own personal injury suit resulting from a collision you had while riding a bike. But remember that not all jurors will be as pro bicyclist as you appear to be. So it's very much an open issue here as to how this would come out since we haven't seen the evidence each side would present nor do we know anything about the jurors who would be hearing it.

  6. #56
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    Default Re: While Driving My Motorcycle Someone Turned in Front of Me

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
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    TM, T=the OP did clarify, later, that he was on an electric bicycle. That said...

    I can certainly empathize with Harold regarding some of the murkiness revolving around bicycles and how they interact with cars. That said, There is no rule in NY that I can find that explicitly permits bicycles to cruise by standing traffic on the right. It's a practice that cyclists had adopted and has been tacitly accepted. When I do employ this tactic I'm certainly not doing it at 20 mph so as to protect myself from being "doored" or having some random driver turn into me from the left. Cruising down that narrow cleft between the parked cars and the stopped traffic is where I may exercise the most care. Alas, that's not what happened to the OP.
    I find it strange that you say you are a cyclist yet you seem to rarely ride between parked cars and moving traffic. Few roads have designated bike lanes and I find myself between parked cars and traffic all the time, yet I do not see other cyclists slowing down when in that circumstance. We take many other measures to stay safe like: Always be aware of how much lane width is left for cars to pass you. Do not force cars to cross the line to pass you because they may be faced with oncoming traffic when they reach you. Always look inside the parked cars as you approach them for a driver who's about to open a door. Alway look at the edge of the door for the first sign of it opening. Look for pedestrians standing around parked cars. Alway ride at least 3-4 feet away from parked car. When a door opens, do not swerve too far out into traffic. Only swerve enough to clear the door. When you come upon an oblivious person yell 'rider back!" Always watch the cars on your left. If they slow for no apparent reason to a speed less than 20mph, they may be getting ready to divebomb a parking space. Never pass that car...back off your speed. Do not rely on blinkers or brake lights for advance warning. Employ all your experience and psychic abilities.

    What I see here, in Seattle, is an electric bike/vehicle free for all. With the exception of cars, electric vehicles are effectively unregulated. This becomes an issue, in my eyes, when some of these fast moving vehicles (the single wheeled devices, electric skateboards, scooters, etc) are making use of bike and footpaths while traveling along at high speeds and the like with no regard for anyone around them. This, I believe will incite some serious controls being proposed and implemented. At the same time, I see some very fast electric bicycles that can match car speeds on surface streets passing cars on the right, at speed, because they're bicycles and the operators feel that the typical rules don't apply...which is what it sounds like was happening here.
    E-bikes are fast, but not much faster than road bikes, and they are much slower on downhills. They top out at about 23-28mph. I know this because I race them all the time. Some can hit about 28mph but they cannot maintain it for any distance without draining the battery. The problem I see is that when a roadbike travels that speed, it is done by a rider who has spent many years on a bike gaining much needed road experience. Not so with e-bikes. They just hop on and travel a speed that they are not accustomed to, nor have the experience to safely travel in traffic.

    Regardless of the vehicle the OP was riding, based on his description, he chose to not operate it in a safe manner and the three reason that it's permitted to pass on the right (there are no exclusions carved out anywhere for hiding from oncoming traffic) are not in play based on his description.
    What I see the OP saying is that he was not aware of the unwritten vehicle slowdown rule. That is: never boldly pass a car that is going less than 20mph or a car that has slowed for no apparent reason. If he was on an e-bike, as I said, he does not know this precautionary rule. But, because he was not psychic, it does not necessarily make him at fault or legally allow a car to cut off a cyclist approaching from behind. A car must still check his mirrors before exiting his lane.

    As has been said, it's not really going to matter, though. This will play out through the insurance companies (or company if the OP has no insurance that would be applicable) and through the civil courts if it gets that far.

    If we want to have a rousing discussion regarding traffic laws as the pertain to bicycles, the history or the paved road and the like I'm down. I have a lot to say and I'd likely agree with Harold more than I'd like but this topic is pretty played out and is in serious danger of being hijacked.
    My experience on a bike keeps me alive. I have never suggested that anyone take up road biking because they will likely fall before they gain enough experience to stay out of trouble. And, that one fall might be their last. In the case of the OP: He now knows the 20mph divebomb rule, but, that does not mean he was 100% at fault. We employ our skills to stay alive, not because we would be at fault if we didn't. I have avoided hundreds of close-calls just like the OP's with crazy-a$$ cars doing exactly what that car did to him.

    TM,
    If you represented the motorist and had a typical anti-cyclist jury, similar to nearly every senior member here, all you would have to do is put on a Comedy Central Roast of the OP, like what was done to me, and you too could place 100% blame on the bike. Cyclists are a disliked group that most lawyers are aware of. Don't tell me that a lawyer wouldn't use that to his advantage...because winning is all that matters to lawyers who overwhelmingly possess no ethics or morals.

  7. #57
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    Default Re: While Driving My Motorcycle Someone Turned in Front of Me

    I find it strange that you say you are a cyclist yet you seem to rarely ride between parked cars and moving traffic. Few roads have designated bike lanes and I find myself between parked cars and traffic all the time, yet I do not see other cyclists slowing down when in that circumstance. We take many other measures to stay safe like: Always be aware of how much lane width is left for cars to pass you. Do not force cars to cross the line to pass you because they may be faced with oncoming traffic when they reach you. Always look inside the parked cars as you approach them for a driver who's about to open a door. Alway look at the edge of the door for the first sign of it opening. Look for pedestrians standing around parked cars. Alway ride at least 3-4 feet away from parked car. When a door opens, do not swerve too far out into traffic. Only swerve enough to clear the door. When you come upon an oblivious person yell 'rider back!" Always watch the cars on your left. If they slow for no apparent reason to a speed less than 20mph, they may be getting ready to divebomb a parking space. Never pass that car...back off your speed. Do not rely on blinkers or brake lights for advance warning. Employ all your experience and psychic abilities.
    I ride between moving traffic in rush hour and parked cars all the time but I do slow down a bit because I have about 3-4 feet to play with, pedestrians sneaking out between cars, doors opening from people that have just been sitting in their cars, distracted drivers either sitting or weaving about a bit. If I do pass cars because I'm going faster than them then I'm compelled to comply with traffic laws. I routinely ride on city streets, highways, to period mountain pass and the like. I've also suffered a collision or two with cars not being careful

    I'm not a cycling dilettante. I ride centuries, and I've ridden in pelotons, though I don't like them, I was bike messenger in Denver in the '90's and I've done a bit of touring. That said, cyclists are expected to know the rules and ride in a safe manner and the description of the OP simply isn't safe and may or may not have been compliant with those rules OP's come here and many paint the facts that they present in a manner that reflects better on them. Perhaps that has made me jaded but I've also blown my share of stoplights, stop signs and other rules that cyclists tend to spurn so that lends it's own bias as well.

  8. #58
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    Default Re: While Driving My Motorcycle Someone Turned in Front of Me

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    TM,
    If you represented the motorist and had a typical anti-cyclist jury, similar to nearly every senior member here, all you would have to do is put on a Comedy Central Roast of the OP, like what was done to me, and you too could place 100% blame on the bike. Cyclists are a disliked group that most lawyers are aware of. Don't tell me that a lawyer wouldn't use that to his advantage...because winning is all that matters to lawyers who overwhelmingly possess no ethics or morals.
    I'm well aware of your view of lawyers, Harold. I'm also aware that you don't truly understand how cases are litigated or what the ethical responsibilities of lawyers are. We do have an obligation to our client to zealously represent them and do what we can within the rules of conduct to get them the best outcome. Part of that would be picking a jury that is more likely to be favorable to my client. And, as I've already said, the defense lawyer would surely try to persuade the jury that what the OP was doing was dangerous and risky and thus that OP is at least partly at fault. So if I was representing the defendant, of course I'd be playing that up as much as I could. There is nothing wrong with the lawyer making that argument, just as there is nothing wrong with the plaintiff's lawyer arguing that the same situation is not dangerous. He'd play that up as much as possible and paint the cyclist as much the victim as he could. Two different views of the evidence. That's the adversarial system we have. It's then up to the jury to decide based on the evidence and arguments they heard which they believe — do they think the way the OP was riding was dangerous thus at least partly at fault? And if so, how much fault to assign to the cyclist? And do they think the motorist could have reasonably seen him in that spot? If so, how much fault to allocate to him? You never really know how the jury is going to come out on that in this kind of case.

    And while some places people may be anti-cyclist, that's not true everywhere. Where I live now people don't like motorcycles, but overall they do like bikes. Either way, though, you're correct that the jurors' biases will play a factor in the outcome and the lawyers will make use of that or try to overcome it, as the case maybe. That's why jury selection is an important part of the process.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: While Driving My Motorcycle Someone Turned in Front of Me

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
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    I ride between moving traffic in rush hour and parked cars all the time but I do slow down a bit because I have about 3-4 feet to play with, pedestrians sneaking out between cars, doors opening from people that have just been sitting in their cars, distracted drivers either sitting or weaving about a bit. If I do pass cars because I'm going faster than them then I'm compelled to comply with traffic laws. I routinely ride on city streets, highways, to period mountain pass and the like. I've also suffered a collision or two with cars not being careful
    Was the OP breaking a traffic law? Or did the motorist break a traffic law or act unreasonably and unsafely by abruptly exiting his lane without checking his mirrors first?

    I'm not a cycling dilettante. I ride centuries, and I've ridden in pelotons, though I don't like them, I was bike messenger in Denver in the '90's and I've done a bit of touring. That said, cyclists are expected to know the rules and ride in a safe manner and the description of the OP simply isn't safe and may or may not have been compliant with those rules OP's come here and many paint the facts that they present in a manner that reflects better on them. Perhaps that has made me jaded but I've also blown my share of stoplights, stop signs and other rules that cyclists tend to spurn so that lends it's own bias as well.
    You clearly have experience traveling side by side with traffic on your bike. It is impossible to stay out of a car's blind spot or to not pass them when they are going 10mph, slowing for a light or pulling away from a light.

    I have had so many near crashes from cars doing exactly what happened to the OP, it was only my split second reaction time that got me out of it. I would not suggest the OP was doing anything wrong. But since motorists have a dislike for cyclists, I would think it to be easy for TM to defend the motorist and put 100% blame on the OP. I know this because that too happened to me.

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
    View Post
    I'm well aware of your view of lawyers, Harold. I'm also aware that you don't truly understand how cases are litigated or what the ethical responsibilities of lawyers are. We do have an obligation to our client to zealously represent them and do what we can within the rules of conduct to get them the best outcome. Part of that would be picking a jury that is more likely to be favorable to my client. And, as I've already said, the defense lawyer would surely try to persuade the jury that what the OP was doing was dangerous and risky and thus that OP is at least partly at fault. So if I was representing the defendant, of course I'd be playing that up as much as I could. There is nothing wrong with the lawyer making that argument, just as there is nothing wrong with the plaintiff's lawyer arguing that the same situation is not dangerous. He'd play that up as much as possible and paint the cyclist as much the victim as he could. Two different views of the evidence. That's the adversarial system we have. It's then up to the jury to decide based on the evidence and arguments they heard which they believe — do they think the way the OP was riding was dangerous thus at least partly at fault? And if so, how much fault to assign to the cyclist? And do they think the motorist could have reasonably seen him in that spot? If so, how much fault to allocate to him? You never really know how the jury is going to come out on that in this kind of case.

    And while some places people may be anti-cyclist, that's not true everywhere. Where I live now people don't like motorcycles, but overall they do like bikes. Either way, though, you're correct that the jurors' biases will play a factor in the outcome and the lawyers will make use of that or try to overcome it, as the case maybe. That's why jury selection is an important part of the process.
    TM, I am very aware of what lawyers get away with in their arena. I watched it play out for five days. It was disgusting to watch. They excel at turning good people in bad people and legally robbing them. I know of no other profession that hones that skill. You may call it acceptable because it is what lawyers do but I call it despicable. Please name another profession that takes pride in doing that?

    BTW - I walked away from another lawyer job two weeks ago. I went to a townhouse to give an estimate to change out a patio slider and all the windows. The lady's daughter was sitting at the kitchen table on her laptop when she told me that she was a public defender. That is all it took for me to not call her back with a quote. In cases like that it is best to not say one word to a lawyer (or her mother)...just ignore them and walk away. Because, whatever you say to them can be turned against you.

    If I was mugged by a gang member, you'd say it is natural to then dislike or be suspect of all gang members. But when I was mugged by a lawyer you suggest that I should just understand what happened and get over it. But no way would I ever go into a business deal with a lawyer.

  10. #60
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    Default Re: While Driving My Motorcycle Someone Turned in Front of Me

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    TM, I am very aware of what lawyers get away with in their arena. I watched it play out for five days. It was disgusting to watch.
    I suspect that your bias in your own case affected your objectivity in the matter. Moreover, the fact that you have described in other posts lines of questioning in trials that are normal, rather innocuous, and that most would not find objectionable as signs of "disgusting" behavior tells me that you have a very different way of looking at such things than do most people.

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    They excel at turning good people in bad people and legally robbing them.
    You see, I disagree with that characterization. It is not remotely accurate. You have that view because your have developed an intense hatred of lawyers because of the adverse outcome you've had in your own civil case and what you observed in your friend's criminal case and perhaps a few others. In short, on very limited set of cases in which you very much had a bias in the outcome. I understand that bias, as it is human nature to see things more favorably that benefit you and those close to you than would others who had no skin in the game. But in your case it has lead to, IMO, a very unreasonable and unrealistic view of lawyers and what they do. However, you have the right to your opinion regardless of how misguided I think it is.

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