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  1. #1

    Default Out of Country Vacation

    My question involves a child custody case from the State of: Washington

    I am looking to know my legal rights.

    I have a vacation planned with my child, 11 years old, for out of the country. This would be during my parenting time, my ex is the primary parent in the parenting plan. The other parent has just told me they do not agree with me taking the child out of the country, but I feel it is safe to do. We would be traveling via plane to Mexico.

    I do not wish to engage in whether my belief to travel is right, I understand others will not agree, but wish just to know my legal rights. If my personal beliefs play a factor, I will discuss them, but to start I would just like to know my legal rights. In the past, the other parent was ok with me taking this trip with our child. The trip is planned for July, but notified today that they do not agree with the travel plans.

    The parenting plan says all major decisions are joint, but nothing pertains to travel

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    This has nothing to do with rights.

    Sorry, but you'd have to be a blithering moron to take your kid out of the country during this Covid19 virus crisis, especially to a third world country like Mexico, where health care is questionable at best.

    As of last Saturday Mexico has 12,872 confirmed cases and 1,221 deaths.

    In the past, the other parent was ok with me taking this trip with our child.
    Yes, in the past, before the Covid19 pandemic a lot of things were OK that aren't OK now, and could be downright lethal to you and your child.

    The trip is planned for July, but notified today that they do not agree with the travel plans.
    I hope that your ex can get to court and get a court order stopping you from going.

    If you still go, imagine what it will do to you if your kid contracts the virus and dies from it. Nobody recovers from that kind of tragedy. Especially when they bring it upon themselves.

    This isn't the time to engage in the usual disgusting petty hostilities between you and your ex.

    Stay home and keep your kid safe.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Quote Quoting adjusterjack
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    This has nothing to do with rights.

    Sorry, but you'd have to be a blithering moron to take your kid out of the country during this Covid19 virus crisis, especially to a third world country like Mexico, where health care is questionable at best.

    As of last Saturday Mexico has 12,872 confirmed cases and 1,221 deaths.



    Yes, in the past, before the Covid19 pandemic a lot of things were OK that aren't OK now, and could be downright lethal to you and your child.



    I hope that your ex can get to court and get a court order stopping you from going.

    If you still go, imagine what it will do to you if your kid contracts the virus and dies from it. Nobody recovers from that kind of tragedy. Especially when they bring it upon themselves.

    This isn't the time to engage in the usual disgusting petty hostilities between you and your ex.

    Stay home and keep your kid safe.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Quote Quoting spokanedriver
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    My question involves a child custody case from the State of: Washington

    I am looking to know my legal rights.
    Your legal rights are to petition a court for enforcement of the order should the parent not make your child available to you during your parenting time. But be prepared should you do so that the other parent will argue his/her denial of parenting time was justified because your planned trip would put your child at an unreasonable risk of contracting a disease that has a significant rate of death. My guess is that most judges will be sympathetic to that argument and not sanction the other parent for the refusal to allow your kid to go on that trip, but you should ask your lawyer what your chances of success would be as your lawyer will know the judges in your county far better than I do. Of course, enforcement of the order may not come quickly given the current limited operations of the courts during the state's stay at home order. See the Washington state courts covid response for more on that.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Ok, let's look at the numbers

    Based on previous posters data, 12872 cases for a country with a population of 126 MILLION. That means .01% of the population. That means not 1 in a hundred people, not even 1 i a thousand people. But one in 10,000 people are infected.

    And even more than that, this virus isn't going anywhere. Once a virus has had this kind of outbreak, it will be here for the rest of our lives. Yes, the rest of our lives. And I will not go through my life, in its remaining entirety, seeking shelter and hiding.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Quote Quoting spokanedriver
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    And even more than that, this virus isn't going anywhere. Once a virus has had this kind of outbreak, it will be here for the rest of our lives. Yes, the rest of our lives. And I will not go through my life, in its remaining entirety, seeking shelter and hiding.
    You don't know for certain that the disease won't disappear. Some diseases have been effectively eradicated, after all. Even if this disease does stick around, and that seems likely (just not certain yet) from what we presently know, once we either get a vaccine or get enough people sufficiently exposed and get immunity that way (and again we don't yet know how much immunity exposure provides) then there won't be any longer a need for shelter in place, etc. So you likely won't need to be hiding all your life. The problem is that until that immunity is there this disease has shown it can spread rapidly and that the death rate from this disease is higher than a number of other diseases we are used to, like the flu. So for the time being the smart thing for society to do is take steps to slow the spread so our health system doesn't get overwhelmed. None of that, though, directly impacts your legal matter.

    The legal matter would revolve around whether your plan for travel would put your child at an unreasonable risk, as that seems to be the reason for the other parent's objection. The problem is that we don't know for sure what that risk is since we don't yet know how many people have already been exposed to the disease as we lack sufficient testing to find out. And Mexico is even worse off than we are in that regard. What we do know is that the death rate among those known to have contracted it so far appears to be higher than many of the common communicable diseases we are familiar with, like the common cold and most flus. Your argument seems to be that the disease is really not a big deal. You are free to argue that idea in your case and see how it goes. But given that the Washington state courts have significantly limited access because of the pandemic it would seem to me that the judges of that state do consider it a bigger deal than you evidently do. So ask your lawyer, as I suggested before, what chance of success you may have pursuing her for contempt if she refuses to allow the kid to go on the trip. Your lawyer will know the judges attitudes in that county better than I do. Just don't assume that they'll automatically buy an argument that the disease is basically no big deal.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Quote Quoting spokanedriver
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    My question involves a child custody case from the State of: Washington

    I am looking to know my legal rights.

    I have a vacation planned with my child, 11 years old, for out of the country. This would be during my parenting time, my ex is the primary parent in the parenting plan. The other parent has just told me they do not agree with me taking the child out of the country, but I feel it is safe to do. We would be traveling via plane to Mexico.

    I do not wish to engage in whether my belief to travel is right, I understand others will not agree, but wish just to know my legal rights. If my personal beliefs play a factor, I will discuss them, but to start I would just like to know my legal rights. In the past, the other parent was ok with me taking this trip with our child. The trip is planned for July, but notified today that they do not agree with the travel plans.

    The parenting plan says all major decisions are joint, but nothing pertains to travel
    Technically, based on the law only, you either need written permission from the other parent or written permission from the court to take your child out of the US. Its possible that they won't even let her on the plane without the other parent's written permission. If you do manage to get her on the plane without written permission from the other parent you could have problems getting her back on the plane to take her home.

    Taxing matters already discussed whether or not you might be able to get a court to punish mom for not giving the written permission.

    Its honestly not a very good time to vacation either.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Let's start by gathering some relevant facts (and I'll note that I have zero interest in discussing whether or not what you're talking about is a good idea and am happy to stick to the legal issues, although, at some point, the two things will collide).

    1. Are you certain your divorce decree or custody/visitation order says nothing about travel with the child out of the state or country? It is incredibly common for such decrees/orders to prohibit either parent from taking the child out of the state without either the other parent's written consent or a court order.

    2. Are you suggesting that taking your child to another country during a global pandemic is not a "major decision"? Does the decree/order define "major decisions"?

    3. Was your decree/order the result of an agreement between you and the other parent that was submitted to the court for rubber-stamping? Or was it imposed by the court?

    4. Does your child presently have a valid passport?

    5. You wrote that, "in the past, the other parent was ok with [you] taking this trip." Did he/she express her agreement in writing? Was it something that he/she signed? When did this occur?

    6. When you wrote that the other parent has now expressed that he/she does not agree with your travel plans, what exactly did he/she say or write? Is this something more than, "hey, Bob, I'm not sure this is such a good idea anymore"?

    7. Have you purchased non-refundable tickets, and are you planning on flying or driving?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Quote Quoting spokanedriver
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    Ok, let's look at the numbers

    Based on previous posters data, 12872 cases for a country with a population of 126 MILLION. That means .01% of the population. That means not 1 in a hundred people, not even 1 i a thousand people. But one in 10,000 people are infected.

    And even more than that, this virus isn't going anywhere. Once a virus has had this kind of outbreak, it will be here for the rest of our lives. Yes, the rest of our lives. And I will not go through my life, in its remaining entirety, seeking shelter and hiding.
    I agree with you 100%. What you find here is more fear mongers that watch too much TV and like to scare people. The facts are that the common flu is more deadly than Covid to those under 60 years old. Also, it is not lethal to children. Having them in your car is far more deadly.

    Now go back to your regularly scheduled CNN / MSNBC / ABC scare campaign.

    Since most folks here enjoy hurting people with their legal advice, you are probably getting a kick out of seeing 40M people out of work while you sit totally unaffected economically by this. Actually, you are probably profiting from the stimulus money.

    However, I would not leave this country, or take a child, while we are under 'martial law.'

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
    View Post
    this disease has shown it can spread rapidly and that the death rate from this disease is higher than a number of other diseases we are used to, like the flu. So for the time being the smart thing for society to do is take steps to slow the spread so our health system doesn't get overwhelmed.
    I can name 50-100 people that got the common flu within two weeks in January 2020. I have yet to know anyone who tested positive for Covid 19. Furthermore, I have asked nearly everyone I've met over the last two months if they know anyone who has tested positive for Covid and have come across only two that knew of somebody else. They were a prison guard and a very elderly person who received in-home healthcare. Since it is obvious where those two contracted it, and we will not contract it that way, where are all the folks who got it from the grocery store?

    As for "overwhelming our healthcare system," that is very unlikely since our doctors and nurses have been furloughed and are out of work.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    I agree with you 100%. What you find here is more fear mongers that watch too much TV and like to scare people. The facts are that the common flu is more deadly than Covid to those under 60 years old. Also, it is not lethal to children. Having them in your car is far more deadly.

    Now go back to your regularly scheduled CNN / MSNBC / ABC scare campaign.

    Since most folks here enjoy hurting people with their legal advice, you are probably getting a kick out of seeing 40M people out of work while you sit totally unaffected economically by this. Actually, you are probably profiting from the stimulus money.

    However, I would not leave this country, or take a child, while we are under 'martial law.'



    I can name 50-100 people that got the common flu within two weeks in January 2020. I have yet to know anyone who tested positive for Covid 19. Furthermore, I have asked nearly everyone I've met over the last two months if they know anyone who has tested positive for Covid and have come across only two that knew of somebody else. They were a prison guard and a very elderly person who received in-home healthcare. Since it is obvious where those two contracted it, where are all the folks who got from the grocery store?

    As for "overwhelming our healthcare system," that is very unlikely since our doctors and nurses have been furloughed and are out of work.
    Your posts just get dumber. You contribute nothing to the conversation at all and, in this case, your comments are not even relevant to the topic at hand, laws as they relate to parenting plans and travel.
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