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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    387

    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Quote Quoting spokanedriver
    View Post
    New information regarding the other parent, they recently purchased our children annual passes to a local amusement park. The other parent plans to drop off the 2 children at the park, alone, and come pick them up when ready. I only bring this up because i think it plays a factor in the other parents decision making choices that they will allow the child to go alone to a busy amusement park, crowded, but not allow me the vacation time how I'd like
    It takes a lot to scare me but leaving an 11 year old at an amusement park alone is far worse than taking him/her to Mexico.

    If something happened down there you could be home within hours.

    Quote Quoting cbg
    View Post
    Given that the OP is now back and talking about the original question he asked, can we turn off the Harold99 Soapbox Show and get back to the business of the thread?
    Then respond to the OP!

    But your 'Soapbox Show' on this thread consists of taking jabs at me and never responding to the 'business of the thread.'

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Quote Quoting pg1067
    View Post
    Let's start by gathering some relevant facts (and I'll note that I have zero interest in discussing whether or not what you're talking about is a good idea and am happy to stick to the legal issues, although, at some point, the two things will collide).

    1. Are you certain your divorce decree or custody/visitation order says nothing about travel with the child out of the state or country? It is incredibly common for such decrees/orders to prohibit either parent from taking the child out of the state without either the other parent's written consent or a court order.

    2. Are you suggesting that taking your child to another country during a global pandemic is not a "major decision"? Does the decree/order define "major decisions"?

    3. Was your decree/order the result of an agreement between you and the other parent that was submitted to the court for rubber-stamping? Or was it imposed by the court?

    4. Does your child presently have a valid passport?

    5. You wrote that, "in the past, the other parent was ok with [you] taking this trip." Did he/she express her agreement in writing? Was it something that he/she signed? When did this occur?

    6. When you wrote that the other parent has now expressed that he/she does not agree with your travel plans, what exactly did he/she say or write? Is this something more than, "hey, Bob, I'm not sure this is such a good idea anymore"?

    7. Have you purchased non-refundable tickets, and are you planning on flying or driving?
    Until you answer these questions the members here can argue all they want about the dangers of international travel and the pandemic, but they can't give you good legal advice.

    FWIW you couldn't pay me enough to travel outside the US right now.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    24,384

    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    OK, I will.

    https://www.expertlaw.com/forums/sho...829&highlight=

    OP, between the thread above and this one, what actions have you taken to work out the issues of travel with your ex? Have you sat down and attempted to come to a good faith resolution? Talked to your attorney about it? Gone to court for a clarification? All of the above? None?

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    3,168

    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Quote Quoting Harold99
    View Post
    No problem.

    We should never stop looking outside our mainstream media for information on this crisis. Even when it is contrary to what we have been told.

    If you wonder why everyone on mainstream media marches to the same mantra, here is what happens when the three most popular TV doctors speak out against the lockdowns.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5L-kfn1BGM
    It is important to fact check what any media reports before believing it. Unfortunately, All Media is after money. They often leave out facts to make a story more appealing. Sadly, few fact check their stories before they are released.

    Nursing schools, medical schools, etc are graduating classes early. They are needed to help care for COVID-19 patients I agree some nurses are being furloughed due to hospitals cancelling elective surgeries. Some rural hospitals closing is not new. It has been happening for,while. Many that should go to the emergency room for emergency health conditions are delaying going due to fear of the virus or misunderstanding and thinking they cannot go unless they have symptoms of the virus. Elective surgeries and emergency room visits are getting back to normal. To say medical personnel are being furloughed because the information about the severity of the COVID-19 virus is not accurate is a lie.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Here are some answers
    1. Are you certain your divorce decree or custody/visitation order says nothing about travel with the child out of the state or country? It is incredibly common for such decrees/orders to prohibit either parent from taking the child out of the state without either the other parent's written consent or a court order. I am sure. There is no mention of travel restrictions in writing in our decree. I wish there was, our children have been taken out of state for recreational reasons

    2. Are you suggesting that taking your child to another country during a global pandemic is not a "major decision"? Does the decree/order define "major decisions"? Nothing is defined by "major decison" Section 4.2 only states Major Decisions Major decisions regarding each child shall be made as follows: (then the different items such as education, diet, things of the sort). And I'm stating that the dangers of this "pandemic" are perhaps not worth the cost of not exploring the world and that the other parent perhaps is using majority custody for their choices but not making equal decisions on my behalf

    3. Was your decree/order the result of an agreement between you and the other parent that was submitted to the court for rubber-stamping? Or was it imposed by the court? This was imposed, primarily by her legal staff and myself. When we were going through this I didn't really have the ability of paying for legal counsel and she did

    4. Does your child presently have a valid passport? Yes, the other parent and I went to get the passport together specifically because this trip was coming up. We went to get the passport probably around Feb. or so

    5. You wrote that, "in the past, the other parent was ok with [you] taking this trip." Did he/she express her agreement in writing? Was it something that he/she signed? When did this occur? Writing by hand, no, but through email, yes. I have several emails regarding this trip that both parents were in agreement. All the way up to me starting my week of time with the child starting a few hours early in order to check in for an international flight

    6. When you wrote that the other parent has now expressed that he/she does not agree with your travel plans, what exactly did he/she say or write? Is this something more than, "hey, Bob, I'm not sure this is such a good idea anymore"? "I'm not comfortable with traveling out of the country" Should I ask specifically if the trip is being forbidden?

    7. Have you purchased non-refundable tickets, and are you planning on flying or driving? We were planning on flying. Our airline has set their own safety precautions, and we had splurged on cost and were flying first class for this special occasion, which would have provided more space. A portion of the tickets are able to be be used in the future, but there is a portion of the tickets that are non refundable


    Because this has medical professionals saying it is safe while others are saying it is not, that is why this is a big issue. If it was, for example, an earthquake that has no questions of its damage then that is one thing. But this is something that some are saying is relative to a seasonal cold, albeit a little worse, where others are saying it's horrible. And if medical staff is saying that exposure helps build immunity, we should be taking this trip regardless of the illness. But to say we should wait until there's a vaccine can't be right, I believe Washington is a state that allows parents to choose whether vaccines are in the best interest in their family or not. That is not to dispute vaccines or not, but simply to say that it doesn't seem Washington would enforce such a vaccine anyway as requirement.

    Basically, both sides are making strong points for and against this virus. The other parent is making choices of exposure, but forbidding my option

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    16,188

    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    Quote Quoting spokanedriver
    View Post
    Here are some answers
    1. Are you certain your divorce decree or custody/visitation order says nothing about travel with the child out of the state or country? It is incredibly common for such decrees/orders to prohibit either parent from taking the child out of the state without either the other parent's written consent or a court order. I am sure. There is no mention of travel restrictions in writing in our decree. I wish there was, our children have been taken out of state for recreational reasons

    2. Are you suggesting that taking your child to another country during a global pandemic is not a "major decision"? Does the decree/order define "major decisions"? Nothing is defined by "major decison" Section 4.2 only states Major Decisions Major decisions regarding each child shall be made as follows: (then the different items such as education, diet, things of the sort). And I'm stating that the dangers of this "pandemic" are perhaps not worth the cost of not exploring the world and that the other parent perhaps is using majority custody for their choices but not making equal decisions on my behalf

    3. Was your decree/order the result of an agreement between you and the other parent that was submitted to the court for rubber-stamping? Or was it imposed by the court? This was imposed, primarily by her legal staff and myself. When we were going through this I didn't really have the ability of paying for legal counsel and she did

    4. Does your child presently have a valid passport? Yes, the other parent and I went to get the passport together specifically because this trip was coming up. We went to get the passport probably around Feb. or so

    5. You wrote that, "in the past, the other parent was ok with [you] taking this trip." Did he/she express her agreement in writing? Was it something that he/she signed? When did this occur? Writing by hand, no, but through email, yes. I have several emails regarding this trip that both parents were in agreement. All the way up to me starting my week of time with the child starting a few hours early in order to check in for an international flight

    6. When you wrote that the other parent has now expressed that he/she does not agree with your travel plans, what exactly did he/she say or write? Is this something more than, "hey, Bob, I'm not sure this is such a good idea anymore"? "I'm not comfortable with traveling out of the country" Should I ask specifically if the trip is being forbidden?

    7. Have you purchased non-refundable tickets, and are you planning on flying or driving? We were planning on flying. Our airline has set their own safety precautions, and we had splurged on cost and were flying first class for this special occasion, which would have provided more space. A portion of the tickets are able to be be used in the future, but there is a portion of the tickets that are non refundable


    Because this has medical professionals saying it is safe while others are saying it is not, that is why this is a big issue. If it was, for example, an earthquake that has no questions of its damage then that is one thing. But this is something that some are saying is relative to a seasonal cold, albeit a little worse, where others are saying it's horrible. And if medical staff is saying that exposure helps build immunity, we should be taking this trip regardless of the illness. But to say we should wait until there's a vaccine can't be right, I believe Washington is a state that allows parents to choose whether vaccines are in the best interest in their family or not. That is not to dispute vaccines or not, but simply to say that it doesn't seem Washington would enforce such a vaccine anyway as requirement.

    Basically, both sides are making strong points for and against this virus. The other parent is making choices of exposure, but forbidding my option
    Again, the technical reality of the law is that you are not supposed to be taking your child out of the country without the written consent of the other parent. So, the law is not on your side in this case in terms of getting your daughter on the plane. Basically, you need a permission slip from mom to be certain that you won't have problems with the air travel.

    Had you planned a vacation to Puerto Rico, The US virgin Islands, Guam, Hawaii or anyplace else that was US territory, the advice you would be getting, on a legal basis, would be different.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    387

    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    I have taken my son to Mexico many times out of LAX. Each time they were very thorough to verify that my wife and I were the parents. If you take a child without the other parent present you will need a permission slip from the other parent. Almost guaranteed.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    3,168

    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    How would you feel if your child became seriously ill or died due to the virus on this trip or afterwards ? If your child becomes ill while out of the country. You and your child will not be able to return to the US until your child is cleared to travel. It is a gamble. Is it really worth the risk ? If you get sick, can your child return alone once cleared to travel ?

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ren/mis-c.html

  9. #49

    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    What if while we were down there we found buried treasure? What if while down there we found a long lost relative who was rich and gave us all the money? What if while down there we saved someones life?

    What if what if what if?

    IF my child became ill, I would stay down there with them. As of right now, there have been 91k cases reported in all of Mexico. Washington has 21k. Washington has a higher density of people who have been reported as infected. Yes, I understand that their is likely a much higher percentage of people in Mexico who have not been tested. But I'm going off reported numbers rather than speculation.

    But again, this is not what I was looking for, I was looking for legal rights.

    llworking, I understand my rights as they were written before. I only posted that long response because someone asked for some details. I understand that without the other parent I cannot take our child

    If I was to file for a motion against the other parent, what forms would I need?

  10. #50

    Default Re: Out of Country Vacation

    The commissioner ruled i could absolutely take our child out of country. Because nothing in our decree is mentioned in regards to travel, there was nothing barring the travel either. The commissioner mentioned some think it's not safe to travel, some think it is, but since nothing is prohibiting travel our trip was in the clear

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