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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Is It Legal to Print Fake Pretend Play Money if We Change a Lot of Features

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    The law is what it is. The job of the lawyer when advising you is to tell you what that law is. What you do with that information is up to you. If you violate the law, there is always the chance that you'll get caught and prosecuted for it. Of course not everyone is caught nor is everyone who is caught ultimately prosecuted. A lot of factors go into both. People make decisions about what to do based on what they know (or think they know) about those things as well as weighing the risk vs. reward.

    Now, as it happens, I know several people involved with producing movies. They tend to be rather conservative in their approach to legal matters. They don't want to risk legal troubles for them or their company, especially when (1) the consequences of violating the law can be severe and (2) it's easy and cheap to follow the law and still get the results you want. So when it comes to things like portraying cash in movies, they simply follow what the rules are for that to avoid the possible severe consequence, even if it's not all that likely, that they'd be prosecuted and convicted of a federal FELONY offense. The rules are easy to meet, so it's a pretty straightforward decision to make.
    That is where we differ. The law is not what it is. The law is how it is applied and to whom it applies to.

    If a jury does not want to follow the law, they do not have to. If a lawyer can convict a person who did not break the law, he has every right to. If he can get a person off who obviously broke the law, he has every right to. So, the law is not the law. Bs'ing about the law and manipulating people about the law is the law of the land.

    As I said, quoting laws is for selling something to the naive. Example: Try warning someone about going 5mph over the limit. They will laugh in the face of your quoted law, that you say "is what it is," because they are not naive.

  2. #12
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    Oct 2014
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    Default Re: Is It Legal to Print Fake Pretend Play Money if We Change a Lot of Features

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    That is where we differ. The law is not what it is.
    You are conflating two different things. The law is what it is. It defines what is legal and what is not. What happens at trial is not just about law. The points you raise touch on the other factors that are involved. What the evidence is, the skill of the lawyers presenting that evidence, and the attitude of the jurors hearing that evidence all matter too. But those things are not the law. They impact the final outcome of the trial, but should not be conflated with what the law is.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Is It Legal to Print Fake Pretend Play Money if We Change a Lot of Features

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    You are conflating two different things. The law is what it is. It defines what is legal and what is not. What happens at trial is not just about law. The points you raise touch on the other factors that are involved. What the evidence is, the skill of the lawyers presenting that evidence, and the attitude of the jurors hearing that evidence all matter too. But those things are not the law. They impact the final outcome of the trial, but should not be conflated with what the law is.
    It is not entirely true because the term "the law" infers what we will get in trouble for if we violate it. We are not concerned about laws that we can break and we will not get punished for, like, going 5 miles over the speed limit. So, going five over is a law that nobody cares about. So, that law is not "what it is"...as you term it.

    What happens at trial should also be about breaking laws that should be applied. But it isn't. It's about manipulating a naive jury to overlook, excuse, or totally disregard laws. It is the undoing of laws and making them not "what they are." So, many laws are not worth the paper they are written on after a lawyer does his dance in front of the jury.

  4. #14
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    Oct 2014
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    Default Re: Is It Legal to Print Fake Pretend Play Money if We Change a Lot of Features

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    It is not entirely true because the term "the law" infers what we will get in trouble for if we violate it. We are not concerned about laws that we can break and we will not get punished for, like, going 5 miles over the speed limit. So, going five over is a law that nobody cares about. So, that law is not "what it is"...as you term it.
    Then you define the phrase differently than I do.

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    It's about manipulating a naive jury to overlook, excuse, or totally disregard laws. It is the undoing of laws and making them not "what they are." So, many laws are not worth the paper they are written on after a lawyer does his dance in front of the jury.
    My impression of your posts here and elsewhere on this forum is that you place too much importance on the lawyer's powers of persuasion and too little on the actual evidence in the case and the law. Sure, the lawyer's ability to persuade the jury has an impact and can be significant, but most juries also do take account of the evidence they heard and the judge's instructions on the law. A good speech at the closing argument won't be enough in most cases overcome crappy evidence or law that disfavors the client's position. Most jurors can tell when a lawyer is totally BSing them in the closing argument, though there are exceptions where juries are totally clueless. A lawyer needs to have the sense to tailor his/her argument to the particular jury he/she is trying to win over.

  5. #15
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    Feb 2020
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    Default Re: Is It Legal to Print Fake Pretend Play Money if We Change a Lot of Features

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    My impression of your posts here and elsewhere on this forum is that you place too much importance on the lawyer's powers of persuasion and too little on the actual evidence in the case and the law. Sure, the lawyer's ability to persuade the jury has an impact and can be significant, but most juries also do take account of the evidence they heard and the judge's instructions on the law. A good speech at the closing argument won't be enough in most cases overcome crappy evidence or law that disfavors the client's position. Most jurors can tell when a lawyer is totally BSing them in the closing argument, though there are exceptions where juries are totally clueless. A lawyer needs to have the sense to tailor his/her argument to the particular jury he/she is trying to win over.
    First off, you do not know how most juries arrive at their decision, what evidence they use or what bias they have going in. Secondly, it is not only the crafty, deceitful, misleading skills of a real trial lawyer that persuades a jury. The injustice of our court system also comes from the lack of skills of the opposing lawyer who thinks he is a real 'trial lawyer' because he has appeared in a courtroom on occasion.

    In our medical industry only accomplished doctors take on certain surgeries. In our justice system any lawyer can go against another lawyer for nearly any offense or defense. All the lawyer has to do is convince his client he/she is in good hands. If they were doctors and they lost a patient during a simple surgery, they would not perform that surgery again. But lawyers can lose a winnable case and all they have do is make up an excuse to their naive client and walk away to do it again.

    Just as we can research the background and expertise of a doctor before handing our life over to them, we should be able to research the background and win-rate of lawyers too. But we can't. Why is that? Is it the work of lobbyists to protect this often sleazy profession?

  6. #16
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    Apr 2014
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    Default Re: Is It Legal to Print Fake Pretend Play Money if We Change a Lot of Features

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    It is not entirely true because the term "the law" infers what we will get in trouble for if we violate it. We are not concerned about laws that we can break and we will not get punished for, like, going 5 miles over the speed limit. So, going five over is a law that nobody cares about. So, that law is not "what it is"...as you term it.
    In one jurisdiction near where I live it was well known to be aggressive on speeding and I have been pulled over there multiple times for going 4 over but was given a warning each time. While not cited, you could argue just being delayed by being pulled over was punishment.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Is It Legal to Print Fake Pretend Play Money if We Change a Lot of Features

    Quote Quoting joef
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    In one jurisdiction near where I live it was well known to be aggressive on speeding and I have been pulled over there multiple times for going 4 over but was given a warning each time. While not cited, you could argue just being delayed by being pulled over was punishment.
    Yes, 'sting operations' are like getting mugged...they are aberrations that we all have to live with. But, they are not the normal or sufficient evidence that we should change our living habits because of them.

  8. #18
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    Oct 2016
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    Default Re: Is It Legal to Print Fake Pretend Play Money if We Change a Lot of Features

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    Yes, 'sting operations' are like getting mugged...they are aberrations that we all have to live with. But, they are not the normal or sufficient evidence that we should change our living habits because of them.
    Is English even your first language? How is being pulled over and given a warning a "sting" operation? The fact is that if you drive 1 mile over the posted speed limit you are breaking the law. Just because you are cited for it doesn't mean that it isn't illegal.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Is It Legal to Print Fake Pretend Play Money if We Change a Lot of Features

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    First off, you do not know how most juries arrive at their decision, what evidence they use or what bias they have going in.
    >

    But you do? How, pray tell, do you come by this information?

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Is It Legal to Print Fake Pretend Play Money if We Change a Lot of Features

    Quote Quoting PayrolGuy
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    Is English even your first language? How is being pulled over and given a warning a "sting" operation? The fact is that if you drive 1 mile over the posted speed limit you are breaking the law. Just because you are cited for it doesn't mean that it isn't illegal.
    Is common sense and life experience foreign to you?

    My point is who cares if something is illegal, like spitting in a dirt field, if there is little chance of getting cited for it.

    People that actually go outside their house know the laws that are enforced and those that are not. It's called common sense and situational awareness. Most of life cannot be learned on Google, as you are trying to do here.

    Quote Quoting cbg
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    >

    But you do? How, pray tell, do you come by this information?
    You should be asking TM how he knows this when he said "most juries also do take account of the evidence they heard and the judge's instructions on the law."

    So, since it was left out of TM's post, we are to assume that most juries can objectively analyze evidence, vacate their bias and not be influenced by a trial lawyer's theatrical dance he does in front of them?

    Let's see if you ask TM or cover for him?

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