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  1. #21
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    California
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    Default Re: State Lockdowns

    Quote Quoting budwad
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    How about you show us the CA constitution and the emergency powers law given to the governor that supports your contention that the governor doesn't have the lawful right to make restrictions in an emergency and stop your bloviating.
    MY governor is not trying to enforce a statewide lockdown since he has probably been advised that state law does not grant him the authority to do so. To show you the assorted city, county, and state codes that cities and counties here are attempting to use to justify their overreach are varied and lengthy and differ by jurisdiction. None of which appears to give them the power to lock people in their homes. The emergency powers granted to the Governor do not extend to lockdowns, and the powers granted to local governments waffle between vague and blatantly not applicable.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  2. #22
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    Jun 2006
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    Massachusetts
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    Default Re: State Lockdowns

    I haven't seen any evidence in MY state that people are being thrown in jail for leaving their homes. My husband takes a walk every day down to the pond a mile or so away; I make a once a week run to a friend's house to borrow her washing machine since mine is broken. Yesterday I went to the grocery store, the post office and the drug store. Neither of us has been arrested or thrown in jail with traffic violators, let along rapists or murderers. Got any VALIDATED stories of that happening, Steve?

  3. #23
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    California
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    Default Re: State Lockdowns

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    As you hopefully know, the domino effect argument is not a terribly good one. Assuming that just because you do one thing that X, Y, & Z will necessarily follow is not a logical assumption to make in most circumstances. Like it or not, public safety is a consideration when judging whether a particular act of the government violates the Constitution. As I pointed out earlier, quarantine laws are nothing new and have been used before to limit people to their homes or other places to prevent the spread of disease. We've just been fortunate that modern medicine has become so advanced that few Americans living today will ever have witnessed that occurring before now. It may well turn out that some of the actions the government has taken cross the line and are unconstitutional or lack a foundation in the state's law. That will be an issue for the courts to resolve later on. And from that we will find out what limits the government has in situations like this. But I have little doubt that a lot of it will end up being upheld. The courts are not going to be blind to the fact that in a serious crisis some extraordinary measures may be necessary to deal with it. The government cannot simply do anything it wants, but there is a lot that it can legally do to address this kind of threat.
    There are limitations on governmental power and their ability to restrict the movements of people who are asymptomatic and not an articulable threat to anyone. There are many cases over the decades that have sided against government attempts at such action regardless of their good intent. So far there is no single statute in CA law that allows this sort of extended reach, and the cities and counties are grasping at straws with old muni and county codes that are vague, or state codes that are being stretched to the extreme to try and justify local actions. The emergency powers granted to the governor are much more limited than the many vague city and county codes that have not been tested in 50 years or more (since most of them had been written).

    If, for one, would not obey an order to lock people into their homes. I cannot buy for a moment that the Constitution is suspended simply because it might be a good idea.

    Quote Quoting cbg
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    I haven't seen any evidence in MY state that people are being thrown in jail for leaving their homes. My husband takes a walk every day down to the pond a mile or so away; I make a once a week run to a friend's house to borrow her washing machine since mine is broken. Yesterday I went to the grocery store, the post office and the drug store. Neither of us has been arrested or thrown in jail with traffic violators, let along rapists or murderers. Got any VALIDATED stories of that happening, Steve?
    In CA there are people being cited and threatened with jail (my son in Los Angeles being one of them when he goes to the store on foot ... which is why he flies in here tonight), and there are stories of that happening in other states as well. Whether they will ultimately be filed and prosecuted is another story.

    Even in the Rodney King riots of 1992 - when the state HAD the legal authority here to impose curfews and movement/travel restrictions in several areas, the courts largely dismissed almost all such cases in the FOJ when they came up. I strongly suspect there will be much the same here.

    As for custodial arrests, well, at a time when we are releasing burglars and violent thugs to protect them from COVID, the likelihood of anyone actually being booked on such a lowgrade misdemeanor is highly unlikely.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  4. #24
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    Massachusetts
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    Default Re: State Lockdowns

    "Threatened with" is not the same as actually being jailed. Got any actual stories of actual jail time for folks who did nothing but leave their homes?

  5. #25
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    Default Re: State Lockdowns

    Quote Quoting cbg
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    "Threatened with" is not the same as actually being jailed. Got any actual stories of actual jail time for folks who did nothing but leave their homes?
    Oh, I'm hoping they don't actually make an arrest ... well, for one, no jail will accept them. And, two, the officer involved could become a defendant in a civil rights suit and that can be a headache and run the risk of not being indemnified by their agency should they lose. So, since they can't go to jail, all they can be is threatened. But, there have been news stories of a number of people cited for violating orders in Los Angeles, but those also involved being on closed beaches, and in Sacramento where people were congregating at a party and a church. Mostly they involve citing businesses that continue to operate in violation of the order.

    But, making a detention without lawful cause is also unlawful. Simply stopping people for being out of their house or gathering at their own house (which has happened in L.A., Sacramento, San Jose, and other places) can be sufficient to violate the law. I can't stop people without reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot. I can make consensual contact and advise and educate, but, detain for something that is not a crime? Nope!
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  6. #26
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    Oct 2014
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    7,831

    Default Re: State Lockdowns

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    I cannot buy for a moment that the Constitution is suspended simply because it might be a good idea.
    It's not an issue of suspending the Constitution. It's an issue of what the federal courts will say the Constitution allows the government to do when faced with a crisis that, left unchecked, might kill a million or more people. Bear in mind that none of the rights we have in the Constitution are absolute. There are limits to every one of them. So in a situation like this, the question becomes how far can the government go to deal with the crisis at hand? The Constitution provides Congress with the power to regulate for the "general welfare" after all. So in carrying out that power what may the government do in extraordinary situations like this one? This isn't the place for a whole course in Constitutional law, but the rulings of the federal courts do provide some support for actions taken to protect the health and safety of the public even when those actions would otherwise infringe a Constitutional right. As noted, no right is absolute.

    Of course the government also needs the appropriate authority in federal/state/local law to take these actions. And that's where a lot of the challenge is for them. The laws many states have just aren't perfectly suited to this. So they have to cobble together the authority from the laws they do have as the basis for their actions or go through the process to enact the laws to grant the authority needed. I think this is the area where most successful challenges are likely to occur rather than challenges to the constitutionality of it.

  7. #27
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    California
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    Default Re: State Lockdowns

    Well, out here they can't seem to decide on where the authority lays so most cities and counties that are trying this crap are relying on local statutes and not state law. Santa Cruz County is relying heavily on assorted Health and Safety Codes that do not seem to apply at all. Hopefully, no one will push the issue such that anyone gets hurt. But, LAPD had a confrontation with a crowd at a gas station yesterday that had the potential of a small riot and violence. I don't know that I'd want to be the supervisor or manager that would have had to give the order to go hands on had it gotten to that point as the legal justification would likely have been weak. Fortunately, the dozen plus officers merely closed down the station and stood around with batons out while getting yelled at, threatened and berated by a couple dozen foul mouthed locals.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  8. #28
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    Massachusetts
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    Default Re: State Lockdowns

    So as yet, no one has actually been arrested and thrown in jail. You're merely anticipating what-ifs.

    Okay.

    How about you, Steve? You raised the issue - got any actual cases where someone was thrown in jail with a rapist/murderer just for taking a walk?

  9. #29
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    California
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    Default Re: State Lockdowns

    Quote Quoting cbg
    View Post
    So as yet, no one has actually been arrested and thrown in jail. You're merely anticipating what-ifs.
    I'm going by the proclamations made by the mayors, chiefs and Sheriffs in those few areas that have announced them. Also, anecdotal stories that have popped up in local papers. I can't find them right now, so I can't say for certain they happened - aside from the beach stories in Los Angeles, but, the stories of actual arrests are making their rounds in cop forums from several places in the US.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  10. #30
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    Massachusetts
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    Default Re: State Lockdowns

    I'll be interested to see any actual, validated stories.

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