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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Being Banned

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    So maybe you could state a crime that does not require any witness?
    You get caught for tax evasion. Your tax return is a document in evidence and not a witness. You commit the crime with no witness. It's just you sitting at the kitchen table deciding to commit the crime knowingly. And if caught, you go to prison.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Being Banned

    Quote Quoting budwad
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    You get caught for tax evasion. Your tax return is a document in evidence and not a witness. You commit the crime with no witness. It's just you sitting at the kitchen table deciding to commit the crime knowingly. And if caught, you go to prison.
    Isn't the IRS agent bringing that evidence forward a witness to the crime?

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Being Banned

    No. The crime was committed by you when you decided to sigh your name to a fraudulent return. Any testimony in court about why your tax return is fraudulent is expert testimony and not testimony of a witness that saw the crime committed .

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Being Banned

    Quote Quoting budwad
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    No. The crime was committed by you when you decided to sigh your name to a fraudulent return. Any testimony in court about why your tax return is fraudulent is expert testimony and not testimony of a witness that saw the crime committed .
    The crime was committed when he signed his name, but if nobody saw or witnessed the fraudulent return, then there's nobody to report the crime. You can convict a tree for noise violation when falling unless someone hears it, or can testify that it did indeed fall.

    And I also agree with Harold99, that an assumed name can't sue someone for libel-slander, unless they are running a business and making money under the assumed name. There's no damage otherwise.

    Edit* Can't convict a tree.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Being Banned

    Quote Quoting Edward333
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    The crime was committed when he signed his name, but if nobody saw or witnessed the fraudulent return, then there's nobody to report the crime. You can convict a tree for noise violation when falling unless someone hears it, or can testify that it did indeed fall.

    And I also agree with Harold99, that an assumed name can't sue someone for libel-slander, unless they are running a business and making money under the assumed name. There's no damage otherwise.

    Edit* Can't convict a tree.
    This thread had been dead and buried for 4 months. Please don't resurrect dead threads.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Being Banned

    Quote Quoting budwad
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    You get caught for tax evasion. Your tax return is a document in evidence and not a witness. You commit the crime with no witness. It's just you sitting at the kitchen table deciding to commit the crime knowingly. And if caught, you go to prison.
    Hey Mouse Man, when false statements are made, they remain false for more than four months...and the above is another false statement.

    A fraudulent tax return will never be prosecuted unless a professional witness notices and documents the false statements within the return. Just as in my trial, my hand was not verified broken unless a doctor examined it and testified under oath that it was broken. Just as the laws that the other party broke were not actual laws that were broken until a professional accident reconstructionist testified under oath that those laws were broken. Just as a cop must witness a speed law being broken in order to bring charges.

    So, signing a fraudulent tax return is not the law that was broken nor is it what you'd be convicted of. It would be the illegal contents of tax return as verified by a professional witness which is the IRS auditor. Also, only a professioanl witness like an EA or a CPA can explain your tax return to the IRS, hopefully explaining and excusing the document. IOW, your "bud" is wrong! But I don't expect anyone here to agree with me because most of you are ethically challenged like one-sided prosecutors or lawyers.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Being Banned

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    So, signing a fraudulent tax return is not the law that was broken nor is it what you'd be convicted of.
    When you sign a federal income tax return, you sign it under penalties of perjury. If the return is false, you may indeed be prosecuted for that perjury. See Internal Revenue Code (IRC) 7206(1), which makes it a crime to file with the IRS any document signed under penalties of perjury that the taxpayer knows or believes to contain false statements. And taxpayers are indeed convicted of that offense. For example, in U.S. v Parker the taxpayer was convicted of two counts of perjury (counts 1 & 2) and two counts of tax evasion (counts 3 & 4). "Given this conclusion, substantial evidence supports Parker's convictions on Counts One and Two. The evidence demonstrates that (1) Parker submitted 1040 tax forms for the tax years 1998 and 1999 showing zero income; (2) she signed the forms under penalty of perjury; and (3) she in fact received significant income in those years." United States v. Parker, 272 F. App'x 289, 291 (4th Cir. 2008).

    I could point you to a number of other cases besides, but I trust this suffices to make the point. It is, of course, true that the taxpayer may also be charged with filing a fraudulent return and/or tax evasion as well, as happened to Parker.


    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    Also, only a professioanl witness like an EA or a CPA can explain your tax return to the IRS, hopefully explaining and excusing the document.
    If you know you are under criminal investigation by the IRS you need a lawyer, not an EA or CPA. Only the communications with your lawyer are privileged; what you tell the EA or CPA is not protected. Also, only an attorney may defend you in court should DOJ prosecute you for the tax offense. While in some cases it is possible to convince the IRS or DOJ to abandon a criminal investigation/prosecution the effort to do so must be done with great care to avoid making the problem worse. Often it is simply better to wait until charges are filed and then defend the case at trial rather than tipping your hand to DOJ early as to what defenses you may have.

    As far as the dispute between you and Bud goes, there typically isn't any witness that actually observed the defendant signing the return. Yet convictions are still obtained on perjury charges using other evidence. Chief among that evidence is, of course, the document bearing the defendant's signature.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Being Banned

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    When you sign a federal income tax return, you sign it under penalties of perjury. If the return is false, you may indeed be prosecuted for that perjury.
    All returns are signed or they won't even look at it. Further, they look at the contents of the return and try to resolve that. Most are settled right there. Way down the road, if you are non-compliant I'd imagine, they'd try for the bigger burden of proof in trying you for perjury which would require proving a knowledge of said fraud. But since you have access to the internet and every case in American history, you can easily show that the IRS has had cases of perjury. So at a stretch "you may indeed be prosecuted for that perjury." But it is a stretch.

    If you know you are under criminal investigation by the IRS you need a lawyer, not an EA or CPA. Only the communications with your lawyer are privileged; what you tell the EA or CPA is not protected. Also, only an attorney may defend you in court should DOJ prosecute you for the tax offense. While in some cases it is possible to convince the IRS or DOJ to abandon a criminal investigation/prosecution the effort to do so must be done with great care to avoid making the problem worse. Often it is simply better to wait until charges are filed and then defend the case at trial rather than tipping your hand to DOJ early as to what defenses you may have.
    I worked for a CPA on tax-day, July 15, 2020, and she was on the phone with the IRS all day. Not all correspondence or the resolving of suspected fraud with the IRS are done through an attorney. Actually, I'd imagine very few are.

    As far as the dispute between you and Bud goes, there typically isn't any witness that actually observed the defendant signing the return. Yet convictions are still obtained on perjury charges using other evidence. Chief among that evidence is, of course, the document bearing the defendant's signature.
    As said, perjury requires proof that the taxpayer knows the tax code and violated it anyway. Besides, Bud was saying the crime was in the signature. Well, 99% of the time the crime is in false information on the tax return. And, paying it is the remedy for those misdeeds, not jail-time.

    I wonder if lawyers ever get tired or grow a conscience with the telling of exaggerated or misleading BS just to win a case? Or, if winning is all that matters to them? I think the latter.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Being Banned

    Quote Quoting Harold99
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    All returns are signed or they won't even look at it. Further, they look at the contents of the return and try to resolve that. Most are settled right there. Way down the road, if you are non-compliant I'd imagine, they'd try for the bigger burden of proof in trying you for perjury which would require proving a knowledge of said fraud. But since you have access to the internet and every case in American history, you can easily show that the IRS has had cases of perjury. So at a stretch "you may indeed be prosecuted for that perjury." But it is a stretch.



    I worked for a CPA on tax-day, July 15, 2020, and she was on the phone with the IRS all day. Not all correspondence or the resolving of suspected fraud with the IRS are done through an attorney. Actually, I'd imagine very few are.



    As said, perjury requires proof that the taxpayer knows the tax code and violated it anyway. Besides, Bud was saying the crime was in the signature. Well, 99% of the time the crime is in false information on the tax return. And, paying it is the remedy for those misdeeds, not jail-time.

    I wonder if lawyers ever get tired or grow a conscience with the telling of exaggerated or misleading BS just to win a case? Or, if winning is all that matters to them? I think the latter.
    Most IRS inquiries, letters, audits etc., have absolutely nothing to do with criminal investigation. Taxing matters was specific in his language that if you are under criminal investigation by the IRS that you need an attorney. You certainly would not need an attorney's help in handling a CP-2000 letter, an audit by mail or even an audit in person unless there was reason to believe that a criminal investigation would ensure.

    However I agree that the IRS does prosecute what they consider to be blatant or large violations of the tax code. They do that to set examples. Otherwise, penalties and interest are enough of a punishment to stop most people from making the same mistake twice.

    I AM a tax professional who was working on July 15th and I sure as heck had no time to be spending on the phone with the IRS that day, particularly since it is nearly impossible to reach a human being because they are not yet fully up and running after the Covid-19 furloughs.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Being Banned

    Quote Quoting llworking
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    Most IRS inquiries, letters, audits etc., have absolutely nothing to do with criminal investigation. Taxing matters was specific in his language that if you are under criminal investigation by the IRS that you need an attorney. You certainly would not need an attorney's help in handling a CP-2000 letter, an audit by mail or even an audit in person unless there was reason to believe that a criminal investigation would ensure.

    However I agree that the IRS does prosecute what they consider to be blatant or large violations of the tax code. They do that to set examples. Otherwise, penalties and interest are enough of a punishment to stop most people from making the same mistake twice.

    I AM a tax professional who was working on July 15th and I sure as heck had no time to be spending on the phone with the IRS that day, particularly since it is nearly impossible to reach a human being because they are not yet fully up and running after the Covid-19 furloughs.
    We were not talking about criminal tax investigations. TM elevated it to that level to be 'right' about something.

    You are "A tax professional?" What is that? A person who works for H&R Block is a 'tax professional.' too. So are you an EA, a CPA or a tax attorney? Especially when you take a crack at my CPA customer for having the time to talk the IRS on tax-day. Besides, the only goofs working with tax returns on tax-day are the H&R Block people who take walk-in customers. My customer filed extensions on her clients, which is what you should have done with your clientele. Also, I have never spoken to my EA even within a week of tax-day. Who's your clientele anyway?

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