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  1. #11
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    Default Re: How Valid

    Quote Quoting PTPD22
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    CONNER99,

    The issue you seem to be missing (or willfully ignoring) in your exchange with Carl is that there is a difference between what is allowed and/or prohibited by statutory law and/or appellate court rulings and what, as a practical matter, is LIKELY to be pursued by a LEO or prosecuting attorney. Carl has repeatedly stated that the issues discussed in this thread are unlikely to be pursued as a matter of practicality. It would simply require too much time and effort and, even if that effort was expended, unlikely to result in a beyond a reasonable doubt level of proof in what is essentially a he-said-he said scenario. However, there is no LAW or appellate court ruling (at least not in CA) PROHIBITING single witness testimony or other evidence collected by a non-law enforcement source (such as cell phone video) from being used as evidence in a prosecution for a violation of the law - even if that violation is a simple traffic infraction.
    No disrespect to Carl but I have been told by many police officers throughout my life that a peace officer must witness an infraction in order for them to issue a citation. It may not follow the law, but it might follow police and prosecutorial procedure, which is stronger than any law around.

    Imagine this: The guy I was p*ssing off with my dirt bike was an older attorney. I approached him once and tried to explain why I ride it and that it's only for five minutes once a month to keep the carb clean. He started getting belligerent with me so I told him to call the cops on me. So he filmed me and did just that.

    If an accomplished attorney could not force the cops to cite me unless they witnessed it, my guess is that it's as I was told and it can't be done.

    Cite all the theory you want. A lot of things are possible like a huge asteroid hitting earth but I live my life on probabilities, not possibilities. If I did, I'd never leave the house.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: How Valid

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    No disrespect to Carl but I have been told by many police officers throughout my life that a peace officer must witness an infraction in order for them to issue a citation.
    And was that in CA? Different states have different laws after all.

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
    View Post
    Cite all the theory you want. A lot of things are possible like a huge asteroid hitting earth but I live my life on probabilities, not possibilities. If I did, I'd never leave the house.
    That's the whole point of what Carl was getting at. In CA it is possible, just very unlikely that it would be prosecuted.

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    If an accomplished attorney could not force the cops to cite me unless they witnessed it, my guess is that it's as I was told and it can't be done.
    No private attorney can FORCE the cops to do anything, any more than any other private citizen. All the attorney could do is a better job of explaining the law than the average person. But while the cop might have been convinced he that he may issue the citation, he was under no obligation to do it and if he had better things to do then he'd not bother. So your conclusion that because you weren't cited means that the cop was not allowed to cite you may be wrong. It may be simply be the cop didn't want to bother with it.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: How Valid

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    And was that in CA? Different states have different laws after all.

    That's the whole point of what Carl was getting at. In CA it is possible, just very unlikely that it would be prosecuted.

    No private attorney can FORCE the cops to do anything, any more than any other private citizen. All the attorney could do is a better job of explaining the law than the average person. But while the cop might have been convinced he that he may issue the citation, he was under no obligation to do it and if he had better things to do then he'd not bother. So your conclusion that because you weren't cited means that the cop was not allowed to cite you may be wrong. It may be simply be the cop didn't want to bother with it.
    No more than I may be correct. And, don't discount the power an attorney has over a private citizen. I will never second guess their power again and will avoid them at all costs...like I would a rabid dog.

    Casting doubt by saying the cop may have had better things to do says nothing to my original claim. It just casts doubt to those that don't know any better...which is the most common debate/lawyer maneuver.

    If you were a doctor that specialized in cancer treatment would you tell your patients that it may go away by itself or if you pray enough? That is also possible and likely happens far more than a private citizen being the sole witness to an infraction that he somehow encouraged cops to cite.

    Quote Quoting PTPD22
    View Post
    CONNER99,

    The issue you seem to be missing (or willfully ignoring) in your exchange with Carl is that there is a difference between what is allowed and/or prohibited by statutory law and/or appellate court rulings and what, as a practical matter, is LIKELY to be pursued by a LEO or prosecuting attorney. Carl has repeatedly stated that the issues discussed in this thread are unlikely to be pursued as a matter of practicality. It would simply require too much time and effort and, even if that effort was expended, unlikely to result in a beyond a reasonable doubt level of proof in what is essentially a he-said-he said scenario. However, there is no LAW or appellate court ruling (at least not in CA) PROHIBITING single witness testimony or other evidence collected by a non-law enforcement source (such as cell phone video) from being used as evidence in a prosecution for a violation of the law - even if that violation is a simple traffic infraction.
    Not so. It wouldn't take any more time for the officer to walk up to my door and write the cite than if he witnessed me riding that dirtbike on the street and wrote me up. Also, it would not be a he-said issue. The officer would have an eye witness who was more than eager to testify against me.

    To me it gets old hearing "there is no law against it," as though we are only governed by laws. Next you'll be saying that folks can't lie under oath because it is against the law. Huh!

  4. #14
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    Default Re: How Valid

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    In CA, an infraction is a public offense - a crime, and CAN be pursued by the DA. I don't personally know of any that are pursued, but, they can be. The San Diego County DA actually produced a memo on the subject to clarify the issue.


    In both instances, what the witness described met the burden of probable cause. But, if I recall correctly, in each case the defendant denied the offense. Ergo, it was an unprovable case and THAT is probably why the case was not filed.


    As they do with most any case where there is nothing more than the word of one complaining party and the word of another.


    Actually, they wouldn't have (assuming you are in CA). Your neighbor could have demanded a private person's arrest, but clearly he did not. More than likely the patrol officers discouraged the complainant from any action, were dismissive of it because they did not want to deal with it, or, were ignorant of the possibility and the applicability of PC 837. Likely a combo of all 3.
    If I was to be prosecuted for that 1. How long do you think itíll take for me to find out? 2. IF the video was at night when itís harder to see, how likely do you think that is considering license plate etc?

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    In CA, an infraction is a public offense - a crime, and CAN be pursued by the DA. I don't personally know of any that are pursued, but, they can be. The San Diego County DA actually produced a memo on the subject to clarify the issue.


    In both instances, what the witness described met the burden of probable cause. But, if I recall correctly, in each case the defendant denied the offense. Ergo, it was an unprovable case and THAT is probably why the case was not filed.


    As they do with most any case where there is nothing more than the word of one complaining party and the word of another.


    Actually, they wouldn't have (assuming you are in CA). Your neighbor could have demanded a private person's arrest, but clearly he did not. More than likely the patrol officers discouraged the complainant from any action, were dismissive of it because they did not want to deal with it, or, were ignorant of the possibility and the applicability of PC 837. Likely a combo of all 3.
    Also what if the witness was a police officer off duty?

  5. #15
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    Default Re: How Valid

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    No disrespect to Carl but I have been told by many police officers throughout my life that a peace officer must witness an infraction in order for them to issue a citation.
    That is only MOSTLY true. The citation can also be issued based "upon information and belief" just as a misdemeanor cite can be. But, this will most often require a private person's arrest. A "cold" report would require a report submitted to the prosecutor so that they might file it ... should they choose to do so.

    Imagine this: The guy I was p*ssing off with my dirt bike was an older attorney. I approached him once and tried to explain why I ride it and that it's only for five minutes once a month to keep the carb clean. He started getting belligerent with me so I told him to call the cops on me. So he filmed me and did just that.
    His kinda dick move is probably why the police did not pursue the matter or provide all the options to the complainant. As I mentioned earlier, sometimes the officers do not want to deal with it ... or, they just do not know how.

    If an accomplished attorney could not force the cops to cite me unless they witnessed it, my guess is that it's as I was told and it can't be done.
    An "accomplished attorney" is not always well-versed in criminal law, or in all aspects of it. This is not a common area of the law in any event. I once had an ADA tell me I could detain witnesses until they provided me with a WRITTEN statement. I asked for this opinion in writing and when he provided it, his boss had words with him. (Needless to say, I never complied with it anyway.)

    Quote Quoting Joey2992
    View Post
    If I was to be prosecuted for that 1. How long do you think itíll take for me to find out? 2. IF the video was at night when itís harder to see, how likely do you think that is considering license plate etc?
    You would find out when you were provided a courtesy notice, a summons, or an arrest warrant. The state would have one year to commence the action. But, if the driver could not be identified by the witness or the video, then no such prosecution could be commenced.

    Also what if the witness was a police officer off duty?
    Same as above ... except he might follow you while he calls for his friends to stop you and then HE can sign the citation.

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
    View Post
    To me it gets old hearing "there is no law against it," as though we are only governed by laws. Next you'll be saying that folks can't lie under oath because it is against the law. Huh!
    Except that here, the law says that it CAN be done. PC 837 permits a private person's arrest, PC 15 and 16 define "public offense" and assorted provisions of the Penal and Vehicle Codes establish the procedures for citations, or, to pursue an action via complaint pursuant to a police report (as ANY OTHER crime). An infraction is a crime just as misdemeanors and felonies are - only the penalties are different as they are limited to fines (and/or administrative penalties in some cases).

    There have been instances where I COULD have pursued such matters, I just chose not to as it was not worth the time and effort, and the DA would not have dealt with it anyway. We had a guy who lived across the street from a convenience store. Every morning people would pull up, leave their engines running, and head inside for coffee, cigarettes, or some quick food or other item and be in and out in less than 4 minutes. He'd call and complain that we were not there lickety split and DEMAND we investigate the municipal code violations (the engines running). He started recording the incidents and reporting plate numbers. The DA told me he would not pursue these offenses via complaint as they were essentially infractions and not worth his time, so we did not pursue them. This neighbor then upped the ante to make them disturbing the peace complaints (misdemeanor criminal violations) and all but compelling us to investigate and forward the reports to the DA. The DA rejected all of them as the noise was not unreasonable given the time of day.

    So, all because we could pursue these matters does not mean we want to, we have to, or the DA needs to file on them. The point is that the police in your situation COULD have done more. For whatever reason - ignorance of the law, laziness, not caring, etc. - they did not do so. Be thankful.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  6. #16
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    Default Re: How Valid

    Quote Quoting Joey2992
    View Post
    If someone ran a red light and it was caught by video from someone behind, including an off duty officer, how likely can this be used to prosecute the runner?
    Quite unlikely, but it could be done.


    Quote Quoting Joey2992
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    does it need to be a government video from a red light camera?
    No.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: How Valid

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    That is only MOSTLY true. The citation can also be issued based "upon information and belief" just as a misdemeanor cite can be. But, this will most often require a private person's arrest. A "cold" report would require a report submitted to the prosecutor so that they might file it ... should they choose to do so.


    His kinda dick move is probably why the police did not pursue the matter or provide all the options to the complainant. As I mentioned earlier, sometimes the officers do not want to deal with it ... or, they just do not know how.


    An "accomplished attorney" is not always well-versed in criminal law, or in all aspects of it. This is not a common area of the law in any event. I once had an ADA tell me I could detain witnesses until they provided me with a WRITTEN statement. I asked for this opinion in writing and when he provided it, his boss had words with him. (Needless to say, I never complied with it anyway.)


    You would find out when you were provided a courtesy notice, a summons, or an arrest warrant. The state would have one year to commence the action. But, if the driver could not be identified by the witness or the video, then no such prosecution could be commenced.


    Same as above ... except he might follow you while he calls for his friends to stop you and then HE can sign the citation.


    Except that here, the law says that it CAN be done. PC 837 permits a private person's arrest, PC 15 and 16 define "public offense" and assorted provisions of the Penal and Vehicle Codes establish the procedures for citations, or, to pursue an action via complaint pursuant to a police report (as ANY OTHER crime). An infraction is a crime just as misdemeanors and felonies are - only the penalties are different as they are limited to fines (and/or administrative penalties in some cases).

    There have been instances where I COULD have pursued such matters, I just chose not to as it was not worth the time and effort, and the DA would not have dealt with it anyway. We had a guy who lived across the street from a convenience store. Every morning people would pull up, leave their engines running, and head inside for coffee, cigarettes, or some quick food or other item and be in and out in less than 4 minutes. He'd call and complain that we were not there lickety split and DEMAND we investigate the municipal code violations (the engines running). He started recording the incidents and reporting plate numbers. The DA told me he would not pursue these offenses via complaint as they were essentially infractions and not worth his time, so we did not pursue them. This neighbor then upped the ante to make them disturbing the peace complaints (misdemeanor criminal violations) and all but compelling us to investigate and forward the reports to the DA. The DA rejected all of them as the noise was not unreasonable given the time of day.

    So, all because we could pursue these matters does not mean we want to, we have to, or the DA needs to file on them. The point is that the police in your situation COULD have done more. For whatever reason - ignorance of the law, laziness, not caring, etc. - they did not do so. Be thankful.
    To sum it up, if a police officer does not have the support of the DA, he cannot move forward with a citation or an arrest. To claim the laws says he could would be stretching the truth.

    It would be like a child saying "I am free to go wherever I want." But the caveat being that he needs his parent's permission and their willingness to transport him.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: How Valid

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    No more than I may be correct.
    Correct. But you've been posting as if your answer is the only possible one, and it's not. It's just one possibility.

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
    View Post
    And, don't discount the power an attorney has over a private citizen. I will never second guess their power again and will avoid them at all costs...like I would a rabid dog.
    That relates to this issue how? And what in the world would make you fear a POA so much?

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
    View Post
    Casting doubt by saying the cop may have had better things to do says nothing to my original claim.
    Sure it does. It offers one (and there are several) explanations for the why cops didn't act on your neighbor's complaint. You seem to think that your conclusion is the only possible one, and it isn't.

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
    View Post
    If you were a doctor that specialized in cancer treatment would you tell your patients that it may go away by itself or if you pray enough?
    As should be obvious to you, doctors do something very different than cops do, so your comparison here is pretty worthless.

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
    View Post
    Not so. It wouldn't take any more time for the officer to walk up to my door and write the cite than if he witnessed me riding that dirtbike on the street and wrote me up.
    The time to write the actual citation would be the same. But you are discounting the extra time and trouble involved in traveling to your residence and the travel time after, something the cop right on the scene doesn't have to do. And that travel time might be significant. Also, in doing that the cop is hoping you are home to hand you the citation, and there is the possibility you are not home, in which case the trip is wasted and the cop either has to try again or give up because he doesn't want to take more time on it.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: How Valid

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
    View Post
    Correct. But you've been posting as if your answer is the only possible one, and it's not. It's just one possibility.
    No, I am posting as my answer is the most probably one. Nearly anything is possible but very little is most probable.

    That relates to this issue how? And what in the world would make you fear a POA so much?
    We are talking about the attorney down my street, remember? Have you, not your client, ever been done dirty by an attorney? Have you ever seen their filth firsthand. It isn't something a person should ever forget.

    As to why they should be feared, they can take an nearly innocent person into a courtroom and force him to shell out thousands to unravel the mess. They excel at making an innocent person guilty, and a guilty person innocent. There is no lower character or skill. I happen to fear gang members much less.

    Sure it does. It offers one (and there are several) explanations for the why cops didn't act on your neighbor's complaint. You seem to think that your conclusion is the only possible one, and it isn't.
    Again, my explanation is the most probable...unless you have a more probable one?

    As should be obvious to you, doctors do something very different than cops do, so your comparison here is pretty worthless.
    Not by much. Doctors go to school for years to best serve the people. Cops do a similar service. Yet some lawyers go to school to perfect the art of screwing people.

    Continually saying things are possible just clouds the issue. IMO, is the oldest lawyer tactic there is.

    The time to write the actual citation would be the same. But you are discounting the extra time and trouble involved in traveling to your residence and the travel time after, something the cop right on the scene doesn't have to do. And that travel time might be significant. Also, in doing that the cop is hoping you are home to hand you the citation, and there is the possibility you are not home, in which case the trip is wasted and the cop either has to try again or give up because he doesn't want to take more time on it.
    Time was no issue because I live five doors down.

    After witnessing attorneys do the lawyer-dance for a week I am beginning to see how you employ many of their tactics.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: How Valid

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    To sum it up, if a police officer does not have the support of the DA, he cannot move forward with a citation or an arrest. To claim the laws says he could would be stretching the truth.
    What the law says and what policy or practice might be are different animals. All because the DA won't file does not mean the police cannot write a report and submit it. In fact, if they receive a private person's arrest, they HAVE to act upon it as a matter of law.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

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