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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Do I Have to Sit on the Ground when Told by an Officer

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    "Often" means that by far most people that stand in front of an officer and speak to them are not being legally detained. They do so out of cooperation.
    That's what's called a consensual encounter. It is not a detention, legal or otherwise.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Do I Have to Sit on the Ground when Told by an Officer

    Quote Quoting free9man
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    That's what's called a consensual encounter. It is not a detention, legal or otherwise.
    That is not the only reason. People often do so out of intimidation and not knowing that they can walk away or not answer ANY questions.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Do I Have to Sit on the Ground when Told by an Officer

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    Also, the citation may not include the reason for the stop, so the cite may not explain why you were stopped. It is possible that an officer could have observed you roll through a stop sign and then, upon contact, found that your registration was suspended for some reason. He might issue you a ticket for the registration but not the stop sign offense. His notes on the back of the cite might indicate that reason, but the copy of the cite you receive would only have the registration offense and not the stop sign violation.
    The impetus for the initial stop becomes paramount in examining the reason for the stop if it extends beyond the reasonable time needed to write a ticket or give a warning and return to the driver his property (license and registration). So if an officer sees someone roll through a stop sign and then finds that the registration is suspended, he had better be able to articulate that the stop was justified. And that the temporary detention was reasonable to the articulated reason. So the reason for the stop in your example was running a stop sign. How did the officer know the registration was suspended as the reason for the stop?

    When a police officer takes the driver's license and registration the driver is in temporary detention so says the CA courts. A reasonable person will not drive away leaving their documents behind.

    Read this case and you will see what I'm talking about.

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...d=2&as_sdt=4,5

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Do I Have to Sit on the Ground when Told by an Officer

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    How would a person know if they are being detained unless they ask? All I am saying is if a person feels pressured to talk to an officer, he should ask if he is being detained.
    I don't have a problem with someone asking.

    "Often" means that by far most people that stand in front of an officer and speak to them are not being legally detained. They do so out of cooperation.
    Most conversations between people occur that way - even when they involve cops. Connor99 stated that the police "often" detain people they do not have the lawful authority to detain. In that context, I was curious what he meant by the word, "often".

    Quote Quoting budwad
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    The impetus for the initial stop becomes paramount in examining the reason for the stop if it extends beyond the reasonable time needed to write a ticket or give a warning and return to the driver his property (license and registration). So if an officer sees someone roll through a stop sign and then finds that the registration is suspended, he had better be able to articulate that the stop was justified. And that the temporary detention was reasonable to the articulated reason. So the reason for the stop in your example was running a stop sign. How did the officer know the registration was suspended as the reason for the stop?

    When a police officer takes the driver's license and registration the driver is in temporary detention so says the CA courts. A reasonable person will not drive away leaving their documents behind.

    Read this case and you will see what I'm talking about.

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...d=2&as_sdt=4,5
    If it comes up, one can hope that the officer might be able to articulate the reason for the initial contact. Usually the reason for the stop is part of the officer's testimony at traffic court, so the context is set. It tends to be boilerplate.

    The post was in response to a not entirely accurate presumption that if one were cited they would then know why they were stopped, and I posited a situation where one would not, in spite of the citation. It was not meant to spur a discussion of detention law.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Do I Have to Sit on the Ground when Told by an Officer

    "Often" means that by far most people that stand in front of an officer and speak to them are not being legally detained.

    You got a cite for that? Or is that your opinion?

  6. #26
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    Dec 2019
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    Default Re: Do I Have to Sit on the Ground when Told by an Officer

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    I don't have a problem with someone asking.
    I respect the fact that you offer your opinion on this, but I am speaking of police officers in general, which you would have insight into being you worked around them.

    In my experience people feel pressured to speak to the police. We rarely have encounters with them and are rarely asked questions by them. When a person is faced with a dashing officer in his uniform, gun, badge, flashing lights and commanding presence, it is natural to feel intimidated. We stand there almost mesmerized wanting to answer any question they throw at us. The police can capitalize on this intimidation and get people to say things that they should keep to themselves...not knowing that the officer has no Right to make you participate or that you are not being legally detained.

    Are you saying that under that situation most police would "have no problem" with that person asking "am I being detained?" And, when the office answers "no," that that person just turns and walks away? Because I believe most police would have a problem with people exercising their Right to not speak to them. Very similar to a person lawyering up.

    Most conversations between people occur that way - even when they involve cops. Connor99 stated that the police "often" detain people they do not have the lawful authority to detain. In that context, I was curious what he meant by the word, "often".
    Again, I meant in the mind of the person being questioned. We think we are being detained and have to answer questions, when legally we do not have to and are free to go.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Do I Have to Sit on the Ground when Told by an Officer

    Quote Quoting PayrolGuy
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    It doesn't become an illegal detention if the subject chooses not to leave or simply doesn't ask if they can leave.

    I can't think of any situation where an officer simply talking to a person would be illegal.
    When a police officer walks up to a person standing on the street corner and starts a conversation with someone about whatever or at a gas station starts a conversation that is a consensual or casual stop. But when a police officer stops a car for a traffic infraction and asks for the driver's license and registration, that is not a consensual stop under any circumstances. The officer requests the driver's license and registration and takes them back to the patrol car for validation and or a warrant search. The driver is now under temporary detainment because he can't just drive away without his property until the officer returns the license and registration.

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    How would a person know if they are being detained unless they ask? All I am saying is if a person feels pressured to talk to an officer, he should ask if he is being detained.
    "Often" means that by far most people that stand in front of an officer and speak to them are not being legally detained. They do so out of cooperation.
    A person would know if they are free to leave based on the circumstances. If an officer has possession of your documents, are you free to leave? No, you are not. You are in fact in detention and the CA courts have said as much.

    In OP's situation, it is not a traffic stop. The officer tells OP to come over here and sit down on the ground. The Officer had better be able to articulate a reason for the detention because that is what it was. It was a detention not a casual or consensual encounter.

    Another interesting and recent case from CA if you like reading case law.

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...d=2&as_sdt=4,5

  8. #28
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    Oct 2014
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    Default Re: Do I Have to Sit on the Ground when Told by an Officer

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    "Often" means that by far most people that stand in front of an officer and speak to them are not being legally detained. They do so out of cooperation.
    But the fact that the person with whom the officer is speaking is not being detained doesn't equate to the officer doing anything illegal. Sure, the person certainly may ask if he or she is being detained if the person is not sure. There is no harm in that. But whether detained or not the person in most circumstances has no obligation to answer the cop's questions if they do not wish to do so, and generally should not answer those questions.

    Quote Quoting budwad
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    In OP's situation, it is not a traffic stop. The officer tells OP to come over here and sit down on the ground. The Officer had better be able to articulate a reason for the detention because that is what it was. [/URL]
    Whether the officer "had better be able to articulate a reason" for it depends very much on the results of the detention. If the cop detains the person for a couple minutes and then lets the person go there is no worthwhile legal recourse for the detained person even if the detention was wrongful. The detained person has suffered no damages as a result of what the cop did.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Do I Have to Sit on the Ground when Told by an Officer

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    I respect the fact that you offer your opinion on this, but I am speaking of police officers in general, which you would have insight into being you worked around them.
    Okay ... then every officer I know would not have a problem with this question. I am sure there are a few that would not, but I don't know them and haven't been present to see such an attitude. But, even if they are terse and do not answer a question does not mean that the detention was unlawful.

    In my experience people feel pressured to speak to the police. We rarely have encounters with them and are rarely asked questions by them. When a person is faced with a dashing officer in his uniform, gun, badge, flashing lights and commanding presence, it is natural to feel intimidated. We stand there almost mesmerized wanting to answer any question they throw at us. The police can capitalize on this intimidation and get people to say things that they should keep to themselves...not knowing that the officer has no Right to make you participate or that you are not being legally detained.
    That presence is what we used to rely upon to keep us and the people about us safe. But, given the current political environment and the media bashing and misinformation, our presence is no longer the saving grace it once was.

    And, even so, the fact that I may be standing all dashing and intimidating in my uniform, badge, and flashing lights, doesn't mean that I am affecting a detention if I ask to speak to you.

    Are you saying that under that situation most police would "have no problem" with that person asking "am I being detained?" And, when the office answers "no," that that person just turns and walks away? Because I believe most police would have a problem with people exercising their Right to not speak to them. Very similar to a person lawyering up.
    As I mentioned above, no officer I know would have a problem with that. Yeah, it might rankle a bit, and it might be frustrating, but, unless they are a true rookie (with a hard head), they should just let it go. Also as I mentioned, I am sure there are some who do have such a problem, but, I don't know or work with them.

    Again, I meant in the mind of the person being questioned. We think we are being detained and have to answer questions, when legally we do not have to and are free to go.
    Thinking you are detained is not the same as actually being detained, in the legal sense.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

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