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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
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    Default Re: Unconscious

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
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    FWIW, in Texas, after completing the requisite paperwork, you can obtain a standard DNR bracelet which will protect your wishes from the sometimes overzealous hands of EMS. Also, if your alert and competent you can decline transportation. EMS has no power to dictate anything to you, the police, your wife or anyone else. They have no overriding power over anyone, their job is to patch you up well enough to survive the ride to the ER.

    As to your initial complaint about care being provided without your consent when you were unconscious: yes, they can do what they feel is necessary and you're stuck with the cost of those decisions. OF course, if you'd died you'd be off the hook.
    I am glad you agree that if a person is not of sound mind in regard to their immediate medical needs an EMT can override their wishes. Also, I was told by a retired fire chief that when there are injured persons on a scene, they are in control of the whole scene all the way to how traffic is controlled. I tend to believe him unless your view comes from higher credentials.

    BTW - Your post contradicts itself.

    If the patient is alert and mentally competent he has the right to refuse care and the EMTs cannot force him/her to go.
    I am glad you agree with me too.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
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    47.606 N 122.332 W in body, still at 90 S in my mind.
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    Default Re: Unconscious

    But your estate would not. So to the extent you leave this world with assets behind the medical providers may take what's there to satisfy your medical bills.
    No, the estate would be stuck with the bills but, hey, you'll be dead so you won't have to sweat it!

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    I am glad you agree that if a person is not of sound mind in regard to their immediate medical needs an EMT can override their wishes. Also, I was told by a retired fire chief that when there are injured persons on a scene, they are in control of the whole scene all the way to how traffic is controlled. I tend to believe him unless your view comes from higher credentials.

    BTW - Your post contradicts itself.
    I didn't agree with you. Anywhere.

    I don't care what a retired Chief has to say, EMTs are never in control of the scene, the incident Commander is, whomever that may be that is higher up the food chain than the paramedic whose focus is not traffic patterns.

    My post did not contradict itself. Anywhere. Absent any legal notice to the contrary, such as a DNR, all measures are on the table when you are unconscious or otherwise unable to make those decisions for yourself both for your life and their liability.
    "Where do those stairs go?"
    "They go up!"

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
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    156

    Default Re: Unconscious

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
    View Post
    No, the estate would be stuck with the bills but, hey, you'll be dead so you won't have to sweat it!



    I didn't agree with you. Anywhere.

    I don't care what a retired Chief has to say, EMTs are never in control of the scene, the incident Commander is, whomever that may be that is higher up the food chain than the paramedic whose focus is not traffic patterns.

    My post did not contradict itself. Anywhere. Absent any legal notice to the contrary, such as a DNR, all measures are on the table when you are unconscious or otherwise unable to make those decisions for yourself both for your life and their liability.
    OK, if you want to parse words, the EMT's boss who is a firefighter can override an injured person's wishes. Sorry for being so wrong and misleading.

    BTW - Saying "if your alert and competent you can decline transportation" also says if you are not alert and competent they can override your wishes, which is in direct contradiction to "EMS has no power to dictate anything to you, the police, your wife or anyone else. They have no overriding power over anyone." Well, they can override you under certain circumstances.

    I'd imagine when there is a fire they control that whole scene too, cops and all.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    38,867

    Default Re: Unconscious

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    OK, if you want to parse words, the EMT's boss who is a firefighter can override an injured person's wishes. Sorry for being so wrong and misleading.

    BTW - Saying "if your alert and competent you can decline transportation" also says if you are not alert and competent they can override your wishes, which is in direct contradiction to "EMS has no power to dictate anything to you, the police, your wife or anyone else. They have no overriding power over anyone." Well, they can override you under certain circumstances.

    I'd imagine when there is a fire they control that whole scene too, cops and all.

    ypure still wrong.

    one of the easiest to point out is that not all emts work for the fire department. There are many areas that have private ambulance services. They do not fall under the control of the fire chief other than where there is a situstion where the fire department is controlling a fire related situation. Tthe chief can restrict the emts acccess to such areas.


    the fire chief also does not control the cops in any municipality near me. The fire chief controls the area where there may be fire department duties but they don’t control the cops. In a car accident situation, unless there is a risk of a fire, the fire department is merely there on standby. The cops have full control of,the situation.

    The fire chief you know may have enjoyed such power where he is from but it is far from universal. I would love to see how your fire chief deals with a situation where there is an active shooter. If you think the fire chief directs the police in such a situstion, you’re simply looney.


    and an emt forcing a person who is competent to take a ride is at risk of criminal charges.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
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    47.606 N 122.332 W in body, still at 90 S in my mind.
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    Default Re: Unconscious

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
    View Post
    OK, if you want to parse words, the EMT's boss who is a firefighter can override an injured person's wishes. Sorry for being so wrong and misleading.

    BTW - Saying "if your alert and competent you can decline transportation" also says if you are not alert and competent they can override your wishes, which is in direct contradiction to "EMS has no power to dictate anything to you, the police, your wife or anyone else. They have no overriding power over anyone." Well, they can override you under certain circumstances.

    I'd imagine when there is a fire they control that whole scene too, cops and all.
    Again, small words: No one can force a person who is awake, alert and oriented (AAOx5, who, where and when they are) to submit to medical care, to be transported anywhere in an ambulance - absent a legal complaint such as a DUI and the like - and the fire chief has no say over it at all.

    Yes, an unconscious person is by definition not AAOx5 and, absent a clear and legal expression of their wishes, such as accepted notice of an active DNR, will be stabilized and transported to a hospital where they will be subject to care per the doctor's judgement and responsible for the cost.

    There is no contradiction anywhere in there. The operative part of the concept is the AAOx5 and clearly expressed medical needs/preferences/etc in the event that you are not AAOx5.


    As for who controls what: Cops control cop stuff and firefighters control fire stuff. Pretty simple and straight forward. If the incident is large enough then there will be an incident commander who controls the whole thing, who may not be a cop or firefighter but CANNOT MAKE ME ACCEPT MEDICAL CARE OR TRANSPORT ME WITHOUT MY CONSENT IF I'M AAOX5!

    Even if I'm a prisoner in a maximum security facility I cannot be forced to accept medical care as long I'm AAOx5.

    Are you getting it, yet? It's a simple concept. It's my body, I'm in control of what I put in it, who touches me, what medical care I receive, et al. I cannot be compelled, under typical circumstances, to do anything with it that I'm unwilling to do. To be forced is called assault or worse.

    I find myself saying AAOx5 many times in this thread. I've not said it since my DWEMT/SAR days. I guess that would mean that I do know a bit about this, huh?
    "Where do those stairs go?"
    "They go up!"

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Lake Chapala
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    Default Re: Unconscious

    Quote Quoting cbg
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    And of course Connor and his previous three identities, all of which have been banned by the moderators of the site, is never less than courteous to anyone regardless of the situation.

    Uh-huh. Tell me another one.
    like button

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    156

    Default Re: Unconscious

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
    View Post
    Again, small words: No one can force a person who is awake, alert and oriented (AAOx5, who, where and when they are) to submit to medical care, to be transported anywhere in an ambulance - absent a legal complaint such as a DUI and the like - and the fire chief has no say over it at all.

    Yes, an unconscious person is by definition not AAOx5 and, absent a clear and legal expression of their wishes, such as accepted notice of an active DNR, will be stabilized and transported to a hospital where they will be subject to care per the doctor's judgement and responsible for the cost.

    There is no contradiction anywhere in there. The operative part of the concept is the AAOx5 and clearly expressed medical needs/preferences/etc in the event that you are not AAOx5.

    As for who controls what: Cops control cop stuff and firefighters control fire stuff. Pretty simple and straight forward. If the incident is large enough then there will be an incident commander who controls the whole thing, who may not be a cop or firefighter but CANNOT MAKE ME ACCEPT MEDICAL CARE OR TRANSPORT ME WITHOUT MY CONSENT IF I'M AAOX5!

    Even if I'm a prisoner in a maximum security facility I cannot be forced to accept medical care as long I'm AAOx5.

    Are you getting it, yet? It's a simple concept. It's my body, I'm in control of what I put in it, who touches me, what medical care I receive, et al. I cannot be compelled, under typical circumstances, to do anything with it that I'm unwilling to do. To be forced is called assault or worse.

    I find myself saying AAOx5 many times in this thread. I've not said it since my DWEMT/SAR days. I guess that would mean that I do know a bit about this, huh?
    Well, it just happened to me where the EMT's would not leave my side due to extremely low blood pressure all while trying to persuade me to take their $3,000 car ride to the ER. They wanted my blood pressure higher before they left the scene. That, along with what that fire chief told me, I choose to form my own beliefs.

    You don't have to be unconscious and the Fire Dept can control a scene, cops and all.

    Quote Quoting eerelations
    View Post
    like button
    Where's your 'dislike' button for post #4?

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Default Re: Unconscious

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    Where's your 'dislike' button for post #4?


    Actually, I really liked post 4! It was great!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
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    156

    Default Re: Unconscious

    Quote Quoting eerelations
    View Post


    Actually, I really liked post 4! It was great!
    I am sure you do. However those regulars that find it unwarranted and offensive have obviously learned to keep their mouths shut about them.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    7,788

    Default Re: Unconscious

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
    View Post
    Well, it just happened to me where the EMT's would not leave my side due to extremely low blood pressure all while trying to persuade me to take their $3,000 car ride to the ER. They wanted my blood pressure higher before they left the scene.
    They stayed with you until your BP was up so that if your BP crashed, they could transport you for life saving treatment. They cannot force you to go if you are mentally competent to refuse but if you were to crash and lose consciousness, they can take you. That would save them being called out again if you were to crash, as well as potentially saving your life. They were trying to convince you to go with them for the same reason. You are closer to life saving care if something were to happen and you crashed.

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
    View Post
    You don't have to be unconscious and the Fire Dept can control a scene, cops and all.
    You don't have to be unconscious but you do have to be unable to competently refuse so drunk, high, sometimes head trauma etc... The fire department can ask the cops to do something but unless it's a major incident where an incident commander is established, it is just an ask. In most cases, officers will defer to the FD personnel for medical/fire issues but they are not legally required to.

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