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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Why Would a Public Defender Choice to Make Plea Bargin

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    You're confusing the dance that attorneys do with lying. It is the defense counsel's job to cast doubt on the state's case, so they tend to obfuscate, twist, and hypothesize all the time. But, they are not testifying and do not offer direct evidence of their own. I have seen a great many stunning directions taken by the defense - and even a few by the prosecution. But, lying - as in the intentional offering of false testimony? Only by defendants who take the stand and the witnesses that support them.

    Oh, and in my state, we stopped using the Bible well before I became an officer, and stopped using the phrase (when being sworn in), "So help you God," a couple decades ago. And, while I suppose there may be a Pledge of Allegiance said in some courtrooms out here, I've yet to see it.
    Mine was a civil case, not criminal. I had one and a half years to research and prepare for it. From discovery, to deposition, to trial, I knew every facet of the facts of my case and how the defense attorney misrepresented and lied about my testimony. He also highly prepared his witnesses to lie on the stand. It was so bad that their key witness came up to me after the trail and said "I am sorry for what I said up there, I had to to protect my company." My attorney said he's never seen so much lying on the stand? Now, tell me their attorney did not put them up to it. Coincidence...no way!

    He lied, the surgeon lied, the accident recon expert lied, and the head defense attorney lied. It was disgusting and it was not a courtroom anomaly as you infer.

    As an officer you may have lost a few cases, but I will venture to say that you have never lost the function of a body part and the few hundred thousand dollars of compensation all due to the professional underhandedness of counsel. Or should I say our justice system.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Why Would a Public Defender Choice to Make Plea Bargin

    I have rarely been involved in civil cases as anything more than an outside observer. I cannot speak as to the truth of anything anyone said in your case, and I'm sorry you went through this. Though, I will say that many people infer a difference of opinion, conclusions, observations, or interpretations as a lie (an intentional falsehood). It is one thing to be wrong, or to come to a differing conclusion, and another thing entirely to actually speak an intentional falsehood. As I said, I cannot speak to the facts of your case - or, more succinctly, your interpretation of them. But, to organize and conspire with a host of people all to tell lies is not as easy as it seems on TV.

    My experience is on the criminal side of things and I have seen a great many lies - actual, out-and-out bald-faced lies, but almost exclusively by defendants and defense witnesses. Unfortunately, most such lies are unable to be proven one way or the other since perceptions, memories, etc., are often a matter of subjective interpretation so they are most often legally immune from prosecution.

    Your limited experience in one criminal case hardly infers that lying is commonplace in the courts.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Why Would a Public Defender Choice to Make Plea Bargin

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    Mine was a civil case, not criminal. I had one and a half years to research and prepare for it. From discovery, to deposition, to trial, I knew every facet of the facts of my case and how the defense attorney misrepresented and lied about my testimony. He also highly prepared his witnesses to lie on the stand. It was so bad that their key witness came up to me after the trail and said "I am sorry for what I said up there, I had to to protect my company." My attorney said he's never seen so much lying on the stand? Now, tell me their attorney did not put them up to it. Coincidence...no way!

    He lied, the surgeon lied, the accident recon expert lied, and the head defense attorney lied. It was disgusting and it was not a courtroom anomaly as you infer.

    As an officer you may have lost a few cases, but I will venture to say that you have never lost the function of a body part and the few hundred thousand dollars of compensation all due to the professional underhandedness of counsel. Or should I say our justice system.
    Of course you had your own accident reconstruction expert to rebut the defense witness, right?

    you had your own medical expert witnesses to support your claims and rebut the defense claims, right?

    i dont know how a defense attorney can lie about your testimony given you are there to give the testimony. The jury or judge would hear it first hand. How would the defense attorney lie but especially why wouldn’t you take them to task on their lying?


    it sounds like you depended on the defense witnesses to support your case rather than bringing your own witnesses to support your case. Then it appears you had no idea how to force their witnesses to recant and correct their testimony, or at least show the testimony was not dependable.

    it sounds like you were simply out gunned and had no idea how to overcome the issues you have described here. I suggest your attorney didn’t do his job very well.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Why Would a Public Defender Choice to Make Plea Bargin

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    All this talk about perjury in a courtroom is quite humorous.

    Keeping lying out of a courtroom would be like trying to keep sex out of a brothel. They all do it and it's how most cases are won.
    And your basis for that statement is what, exactly? The one case you lost because you believe that everyone lied? And how are you even sure they lied rather than simply had a different view of things than you did? In any event, one case, or even a couple of cases, out of just one local area is not a valid sample from which such sweeping generalizations can be supported. I have been practicing law for 2 decades and have been in several different states and I can tell you from my experience that corruption and other problems vary significantly from one place to another. In most places I'm familiar with corruption is low and cases like you described would be very much uncommon. In one place I lived corruption was much more prevalent and you had more of those kinds of problems, but even then it did not infect the majority of the cases. The point being that generalizations about this sort of thing are going to be wrong simply because each case is different and each community in this large country is different, and what you experience in one or even a few cases is not necessarily going to be representative of what goes on in other cases or in other places.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Why Would a Public Defender Choice to Make Plea Bargin

    You guys can have your opinion of how wonderful and flawless our court system is but I doubt any of you have ever been where I was sitting. It was disgusting to watch. And you JK, from your questions, it is obvious that you haven't.

    Just so we don't thread drift too much, let's get back to perjury in the courtroom with an example of my case: My surgeon testified in court. Their surgeon examined me and also testified..agreeing with the extent of the injury. My broken bone, surgery and months of therapy was boldly verified by both surgeons. Yet during closing arguments the defense attorney said "there is no evidence of an injury." If that is not perjury, what is? Was he calling both surgeons liars or was he lying himself? Take your pick, because it was not an opinion after that level of scientific testimony.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Why Would a Public Defender Choice to Make Plea Bargin

    Closing statements is not testimony, per se. The opposing counsel was attempting to summarize the wight of the evidence as they interpreted it - or, how they wanted the jury to interpret it. I do not believe ANY state criminalizes such statements as perjury - even if the conclusion might defy common sense. If it was too far out of line, the other attorney might be able to object, but where that line might be could vary greatly by state and jurisdiction.

    And, for the record, I don't believe ANY of us wrote that the system was "wonderful" and flawless," we only took exception to your characterization that lies are rampant throughout the court system. There is simply no objective basis for such a claim.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Why Would a Public Defender Choice to Make Plea Bargin

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    Closing statements is not testimony, per se. The opposing counsel was attempting to summarize the wight of the evidence as they interpreted it - or, how they wanted the jury to interpret it. I do not believe ANY state criminalizes such statements as perjury - even if the conclusion might defy common sense. If it was too far out of line, the other attorney might be able to object, but where that line might be could vary greatly by state and jurisdiction.

    And, for the record, I don't believe ANY of us wrote that the system was "wonderful" and flawless," we only took exception to your characterization that lies are rampant throughout the court system. There is simply no objective basis for such a claim.
    I listened to so much of that highly refined double-talk that I am getting flashbacks. That attorney had no basis to contradict two surgeons, one being his own.

    Of course he is trying to influence the jury by "reinterpreting" scientific evidence...and he did it by lying.

    And forget I said 'perjury.' I'll simplify it by saying lying. And that one statement was only the tip of the iceberg.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Why Would a Public Defender Choice to Make Plea Bargin

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    You guys can have your opinion of how wonderful and flawless our court system is but I doubt any of you have ever been where I was sitting. It was disgusting to watch. And you JK, from your questions, it is obvious that you haven't.

    Just so we don't thread drift too much, let's get back to perjury in the courtroom with an example of my case: My surgeon testified in court. Their surgeon examined me and also testified..agreeing with the extent of the injury. My broken bone, surgery and months of therapy was boldly verified by both surgeons. Yet during closing arguments the defense attorney said "there is no evidence of an injury." If that is not perjury, what is? Was he calling both surgeons liars or was he lying himself? Take your pick, because it was not an opinion after that level of scientific testimony.
    I think Iíve been precisely where you were sitting having been through something that sounds like a very similar situation.

    closing arguments are not sworn testimony so no, it isnít perjury.

    lying I can agree with. Of course youíre attorney brought up rule 3.4(e), correct?

    again, it sounds like your attorney didnít do his job very well.




    https://cyber.harvard.edu/~nesson/La...g_Argument.rtf

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Why Would a Public Defender Choice to Make Plea Bargin

    Quote Quoting jk
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    I think I’ve been precisely where you were sitting having been through something that sounds like a very similar situation.

    closing arguments are not sworn testimony so no, it isn’t perjury.
    So what. Then it is lying solely to influence the jury. I don't care if he can be brought up on perjury charges.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Why Would a Public Defender Choice to Make Plea Bargin

    Quote Quoting CONNOR99
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    So what. Then it is lying solely to influence the jury. I don't care if he can be brought up on perjury charges.
    There are rules to what a party can state during closing arguments. Either the statement was not seen as you characterized it or your attorney failed you, at least from what I read of your situation.

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