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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    Default Re: Ticket- Too Fast for Conditions- Good Weather, Middle of Day

    Quote Quoting zeljo
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    I'm afraid the accident is his fault, and exactly due to the speed being "too fast for conditions." The reasoning is that, had he gone slower, he would have avoided the deer. As for the other ticket, he should testify in court he was going to/from school, have his friends backache him up, if necessary. That one should be defeated in court, as there is no way anyone can disprove where they were going... especially since it is true . I would also remind your kid that the driver is supposed to scan ahead and side-to-side for risks, such as a deer. If there was no visibility to the sides, he should have slowed down.
    a court can determine that some out of way cruise from school to home violates the intent of the law if it is obvious it was not a relatively direct route. Using your argument a kid could leave school, drive across two states and end up at home and be within the intent of the law as long as they weren’t “going somewhere besides home”.


    From what the op said, kid did avoid the deer.



    https://www.michigan.gov/documents/m...7_550835_7.pdf


    Pursuant to MCL 257.627(1), a person operating a vehicle on a highway shall operate that vehicle at a careful and prudent speed not greater than nor less that is reasonable and proper, having due regard to the traffic, surface, and width of the highway and of any other condition existing at the time. A person shall not operate a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than that which will permit a stop within the assured, clear distance ahead. A violation of MCL 257.627(1) shall be referred to as a violation of the “basic speed law” or “VBSL.
    it would appear, based on the above statement by the state of Michigan, that he may not have been in violation of the “driving too fast for conditions” law. A deer that runs into te road is an emergent condition and is not applicable to the ability to being able to stop within an assured clear distance.

    The more I think about this the greater chance I think the kid has to beat the ticket. Since the kid was speeding, I would believe this issue to be more accurate;


    257.626b Careless or negligent operation of vehicle as civil infraction.Sec. 626b.
    A person who operates a vehicle upon a highway or a frozen public lake, stream, or pond or other place open to the general public including an area designated for the parking of vehicles in a careless or negligent manner likely to endanger any person or property, but without wantonness or recklessness, is responsible for a civil infraction.




    If the cop or prosecutor really wanted to push the issue, they could likely charge this;
    257.626 Reckless driving on highway, frozen public lake, or parking place; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.Sec. 626.
    (1) A person who violates this section is guilty of reckless driving punishable as provided in this section.
    (2) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person who operates a vehicle upon a highway or a frozen public lake, stream, or pond or other place open to the general public, including, but not limited to, an area designated for the parking of motor vehicles, in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or a fine of not more than $500.00, or both.
    (3) Beginning October 31, 2010, a person who operates a vehicle in violation of subsection (2) and by the operation of that vehicle causes serious impairment of a body function to another person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not less than $1,000.00 or more than $5,000.00, or both. The judgment of sentence may impose the sanction permitted under section 625n. If the vehicle is not ordered forfeited under section 625n, the court shall order vehicle immobilization under section 904d in the judgment of sentence.
    .


    driving down a dirt road, in excess of the speed limit, could be seen as willful disregard for the safety of others, especially considering his lack of experience and the multiple underage kids in the car.

    If anybody was seriously injured, it bumps up to a felony.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
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    320

    Default Re: Ticket- Too Fast for Conditions- Good Weather, Middle of Day

    Quote Quoting jk
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    a court can determine that some out of way cruise from school to home violates the intent of the law if it is obvious it was not a relatively direct route. Using your argument a kid could leave school, drive across two states and end up at home and be within the intent of the law as long as they weren’t “going somewhere besides home”.
    Maybe in your world, but not one where serious, rational people make decisions. O/P said the kid was "on his way home from school". If he drove across two states to get there, I think it would have been mentioned. Quit talking out of your ass.

    Quote Quoting jk
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    From what the op said, kid did avoid the deer.
    Well, if you avoid the deer, but "...swerve into the loose gravel at the side of the road, hit the slight incline of the bank next to the road, then... hit a tree and roll in a cornfield", you can and will still be presumed to have driven too fast for the conditions. That part was implied, and now I have spelled it out for you.

    Quote Quoting jk
    View Post

    Pursuant to MCL 257.627(1), a person operating a vehicle on a highway shall operate that vehicle at a careful and prudent speed not greater than nor less that is reasonable and proper, having due regard to the traffic, surface, and width of the highway and of any other condition existing at the time. A person shall not operate a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than that which will permit a stop within the assured, clear distance ahead. A violation of MCL 257.627(1) shall be referred to as a violation of the “basic speed law” or “VBSL.

    it would appear, based on the above statement by the state of Michigan, that he may not have been in violation of the “driving too fast for conditions” law. A deer that runs into te road is an emergent condition and is not applicable to the ability to being able to stop within an assured clear distance.

    The more I think about this the greater chance I think the kid has to beat the ticket.
    You're something else. So you're clear to hit anything that jumps out onto the road? And he didn't even HIT the deer, he hit a tree and rolled off the road. If there was a car in his way, he would have been unable to avoid it. He sure jeopardized his life and that of his passengers. A textbook situation for this kind of ticket, much more so than the often arbitrary judgment calls by traffic police. "A person operating a vehicle on a highway shall operate that vehicle at a careful and prudent speed not greater than nor less that is reasonable and proper, having due regard to the traffic, surface, and width of the highway and of any other condition existing at the time." A deer jumping onto the road is "any other condition." Normally I try to find way for people to beat their tickets but, in this case, it would be a waste of time. And the ticket is also well deserved, if they want to teach their kid a lesson.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    38,728

    Default Re: Ticket- Too Fast for Conditions- Good Weather, Middle of Day

    Quote Quoting zeljo
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    Maybe in your world, but not one where serious, rational people make decisions. O/P said the kid was "on his way home from school". If he drove across two states to get there, I think it would have been mentioned. Quit talking out of your ass.



    Well, if you avoid the deer, but "...swerve into the loose gravel at the side of the road, hit the slight incline of the bank next to the road, then... hit a tree and roll in a cornfield", you can and will still be presumed to have driven too fast for the conditions. That part was implied, and now I have spelled it out for you.



    You're something else. So you're clear to hit anything that jumps out onto the road? And he didn't even HIT the deer, he hit a tree and rolled off the road. If there was a car in his way, he would have been unable to avoid it. He sure jeopardized his life and that of his passengers. A textbook situation for this kind of ticket, much more so than the often arbitrary judgment calls by traffic police. "A person operating a vehicle on a highway shall operate that vehicle at a careful and prudent speed not greater than nor less that is reasonable and proper, having due regard to the traffic, surface, and width of the highway and of any other condition existing at the time." A deer jumping onto the road is "any other condition." Normally I try to find way for people to beat their tickets but, in this case, it would be a waste of time. And the ticket is also well deserved, if they want to teach their kid a lesson.
    I was a kid once. I know the difference between going from school to home (or friends home) and taking a leisurely route that a magistrate or judge can determine was not simply “to and from school”. My two states statement was an obvious exaggeration (obviously i didn’t even suggest the op said anything close to that.) but using your argument, driving across two states would still be simply “to and from school”. Obviously it isn’t and neither is joy riding and taking an unnecessarily extended route. Of course I also didn’t say the kid did take an unnecessarily extended route. I said if the judge determines the kid did so, they can determine the kid in violation of the restrictions applied to level 2 drivers. You taking my statement literally suggests you have problems with abstract thinking.


    drivimg too fast for conditions; you have ignored this part;


    A person shall not operate a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than that which will permit a stop within the assured, clear distance ahead.

    a deer jumping into the roadway can do so in less than what is determined to be an assured clear distance. An assured clear distance is what you can see ahead of you. The law requires you to be able to stop within that distance without hitting an obstruction. A deer can jump in front of your car with less than that assured clear distance between the animal and your car. The driving too fast for conditions law does not apply to situations such as that. Hell, I’ve had a deer run into the side of my car. Using your ridiculous argument I would be driving too fast for conditions. You obviously can’t spell very well because your spelling is incorrect.

    and yes, if a car came from a side road (such as where they would run a stop sign) with the driver with right of way being closer than an assured clear distance and there was a collision, you’re damn straight the driver with right or way has no fault. It is the driver who failed to stop with complete culpability. It would be the same if an oncoming driver turned left in front of you closer than what would be determined to be an assured clear distance. Using your argument the car turning in front of you could never be at fault because the driver going straight was going too fast to be able to stop before hitting a car that turned in front of you no matter how close you were when they turned.


    So, the kid is innocent of driving too fast for conditions but he is guilty of careless driving because he was speeding and ended up in an accident. As I said, an aggressive prosecutor could charge reckless driving if he feels he can prove willful or wanton disregard for the safety of the passengers. Intentionally speeding while holding a level 2 license (obvious lack of experience) on a dirt road might be seen as willful disregard for the safety of others.

    A ticket (and maybe both depending on all of the facts) is deserved). It just isn’t the ticket the kid got (driving too fast for conditions) but another charge that he wasn’t written a ticket for.

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