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  1. #11
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    Default Re: If Trump Directs Mcgahn to Fire Mueller, is That Really Obstruction

    Quote Quoting riffwraith
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    Ok, that makes sense. If he directed Mcgahn to fire Mueller, and Mcgahn actually fired Mueller, or attempted to, I can easily see a case for the President being guilty of obstruction (well, charged to begin with).

    But, If he directed Mcgahn to fire Mueller in order to hinder, delay, or prevent Mueller's investigation, and if Mcgahn did not act on it, is THAT obstruction by the President?
    the act doesn’t have to be successful to be considered obstruction. The act of attempting to hinder an investigation is obstruction. The act of obstruction of justice is a stand alone crime. The point is it is not known if there is a crime or not hence the investigation to determine whether there is a crime or not. Interfering with that investigation is a crime.




    18:1505 says this;

    Whoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication influences, obstructs, or impedes or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede the due and proper administration of the law under which any pending proceeding is being had before any department or agency of the United States, or the due and proper exercise of the power of inquiry under which any inquiry or investigation is being had by either House, or any committee of either House or any joint committee of the Congress


    firing anybody with the intent to influence an investigation is a crime. There needs to be no crime discovered for the charge under 18 1505 to be valid. It is the act of improperly attempting to influence the investigation that is a crime all its own.


    While the president can fire whomever he chooses (although that in itself isn’t an accurate statement as I believe many he claimed to be able to fire were not able to be fired by chump. As it was, chump was not empowered to fire mueller), if the action is with the intent to Influence an investigation, that is a crime.


    Additionally, The floating of a possible pardon for a person who is under criminal indictment to attempt to cause them to be reticent in their statements violates 18 1510

  2. #12
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    Default Re: If Trump Directs Mcgahn to Fire Mueller, is That Really Obstruction

    Quote Quoting jk
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    18:1505 says this;
    I knew there was a better statute to cite than the one I did.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: If Trump Directs Mcgahn to Fire Mueller, is That Really Obstruction

    Get over it guys. The pendulum is swinging the other way now and the people behind this hoax will be the ones in jail.

  4. #14

    Default Re: If Trump Directs Mcgahn to Fire Mueller, is That Really Obstruction

    Quote Quoting budwad
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    Get over it guys. The pendulum is swinging the other way now and the people behind this hoax will be the ones in jail.
    You drank the kool-aide huh?

  5. #15
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    Default Re: If Trump Directs Mcgahn to Fire Mueller, is That Really Obstruction

    Quote Quoting jk
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    The act of attempting to hinder an investigation is obstruction.
    Right. But what this comes down to, in my inexperienced mind anyway, is whether or not Trump telling Mcgahn to fire Mueller, and Mcgahn saying no, would constitute an act.

    Trump: Don, fire Meuller.
    Mcgahn: No.

    Is that an attempt to hinder?

  6. #16
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    Default Re: If Trump Directs Mcgahn to Fire Mueller, is That Really Obstruction

    I just love it when mueller has specifically and intentionally stated his investigation clearly did not exonerate chump yet the trumpturds seem to gather in echo of chumps claim of no collusion, no obstruction. What’s even funnier is the fact mueller specifically stated he was not investigating “collusion” as collusion is not a crime within federal code. He looked for conspiratorial acts, and he even found such acts. The issue is he believed the trump kids that did conspire weren’t capable of understanding their acts were unlawful and due to the requisite acts to be found guilty under the law one has to have provable mens rea. In other words a crime was committed but mueller did not believe it could be successfully prosecuted.

    Whats even worse is when the republicans in the senate have already stated that no matter what charges the house may file in articles of impeachment, they would ignore the facts and quickly bring a finding of no conviction. That is where McConnell and the others that conspire to improperly influence the investigation and prosecution of a crime become the treasonous actors themselves.

    Chump has become an enemy of the state and is the only person guilty of attempting a coup. His attempts to subvert the constitution itself is nothing short of treason.

    In addition, he has employed tactics that are clearly intended to suppress the rights of anybody that speaks against him. His constant charge of “fake news” undermines the first amendment. Not only has he actively attempted to silence his critics, he has suggested taking illegal actions against various members of the press. His praise of those that physically attack his detractors, going so far as to stating he would pay their legal fees should an actor should be prosecuted for attacking a trump detractor, is nothing short of fascism.




    But to it being a hoax

    lets see, who initiated the investigation and what was it’s scope? Well, here is the letter authorizing the investigation

    https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...r-special.html

    and who signed it? Rosenstein. Hmmmm, I wonder who appointed rod Rosenstein to his position that allowed him to authorize such an investigation.


    Nah, not really. It was Chump himself. It’s kind of foolish to attack mueller and his [whatever number] of angry democrats when mueller is a registered republican and he was appointed by a person trump directly appointed to his position.

    So now anybody that reads the letter of authorization can clearly see why, as chump regularly whines about, why s isn’t mueller investigating Hilary Clinton or anybody else? Well duh, it’s because he was not authorized to investigate those matters unless they became known as a part of the authorized investigation.



    As far as those behind the “hoax” going to jail

    The truth of the matter is the investigation was a lawfully authorized and undertaken investigation deemed appropriate by the department of justice (pre-toady days where Barr took the reigns). There is nothing for anybody to go to jail for.

    Quote Quoting riffwraith
    View Post
    Right. But what this comes down to, in my inexperienced mind anyway, is whether or not Trump telling Mcgahn to fire Mueller, and Mcgahn saying no, would constitute an act.

    Trump: Don, fire Meuller.
    Mcgahn: No.

    Is that an attempt to hinder?
    if trumps intent was to adversely affect the investigation, yes, of course it is obstruction. It doesn’t matter that Meghan said no. As I stated previously, obstruction is a stand alone charge and does not need be based on the successful discovery of a crime nor does it require the attempt to unduly influence the investigation be successful. That is where the “endeavors to influence” comes into play. It doesn’t say one must successfully influence an investigation but simple that one endeavors, or simply put: attempts, to influence an investigation. ,

  7. #17

    Default Re: If Trump Directs Mcgahn to Fire Mueller, is That Really Obstruction

    Quote Quoting jk
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    I just love it when mueller has specifically and intentionally stated his investigation clearly did not exonerate chump yet the trumpturds seem to gather in echo of chumps claim of no collusion, no obstruction. What’s even funnier is the fact mueller specifically stated he was not investigating “collusion” as collusion is not a crime within federal code. He looked for conspiratorial acts, and he even found such acts. The issue is he believed the trump kids that did conspire weren’t capable of understanding their acts were unlawful and due to the requisite acts to be found guilty under the law one has to have provable mens rea. In other words a crime was committed but mueller did not believe it could be successfully prosecuted.

    Whats even worse is when the republicans in the senate have already stated that no matter what charges the house may file in articles of impeachment, they would ignore the facts and quickly bring a finding of no conviction. That is where McConnell and the others that conspire to improperly influence the investigation and prosecution of a crime become the treasonous actors themselves.

    Chump has become an enemy of the state and is the only person guilty of attempting a coup. His attempts to subvert the constitution itself is nothing short of treason.

    In addition, he has employed tactics that are clearly intended to suppress the rights of anybody that speaks against him. His constant charge of “fake news” undermines the first amendment. Not only has he actively attempted to silence his critics, he has suggested taking illegal actions against various members of the press. His praise of those that physically attack his detractors, going so far as to stating he would pay their legal fees should an actor should be prosecuted for attacking a trump detractor, is nothing short of fascism.




    But to it being a hoax

    lets see, who initiated the investigation and what was it’s scope? Well, here is the letter authorizing the investigation

    https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...r-special.html

    and who signed it? Rosenstein. Hmmmm, I wonder who appointed rod Rosenstein to his position that allowed him to authorize such an investigation.


    Nah, not really. It was Chump himself. It’s kind of foolish to attack mueller and his [whatever number] of angry democrats when mueller is a registered republican and he was appointed by a person trump directly appointed to his position.

    So now anybody that reads the letter of authorization can clearly see why, as chump regularly whines about, why s isn’t mueller investigating Hilary Clinton or anybody else? Well duh, it’s because he was not authorized to investigate those matters unless they became known as a part of the authorized investigation.



    As far as those behind the “hoax” going to jail

    The truth of the matter is the investigation was a lawfully authorized and undertaken investigation deemed appropriate by the department of justice (pre-toady days where Barr took the reigns). There is nothing for anybody to go to jail for.



    if trumps intent was to adversely affect the investigation, yes, of course it is obstruction. It doesn’t matter that Meghan said no. As I stated previously, obstruction is a stand alone charge and does not need be based on the successful discovery of a crime nor does it require the attempt to unduly influence the investigation be successful. That is where the “endeavors to influence” comes into play. It doesn’t say one must successfully influence an investigation but simple that one endeavors, or simply put: attempts, to influence an investigation. ,
    Wish there was a lie button here. Beautifully stated JK!

  8. #18
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    Default Re: If Trump Directs Mcgahn to Fire Mueller, is That Really Obstruction

    Some of you folks are downright delusional. Prosecutors do not exonerate, they charge and indict for crimes when they have beyond reasonable doubt.

    What happened to innocent until proven guilty.

    And to JK, the perpetrators of this hoax will be indicted. Just wait.

    I urge all the Dems in Congress to continue their mission. You are handing the 2020 election to Trump. The American people know it's a hoax.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: If Trump Directs Mcgahn to Fire Mueller, is That Really Obstruction

    Quote Quoting budwad
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    Some of you folks are downright delusional. Prosecutors do not exonerate, they charge and indict for crimes when they have beyond reasonable doubt.

    What happened to innocent until proven guilty.

    And to JK, the perpetrators of this hoax will be indicted. Just wait.

    I urge all the Dems in Congress to continue their mission. You are handing the 2020 election to Trump. The American people know it's a hoax.
    Bud, you are a bit delusional. The majority of American people don't approve of Trump at all. On top of that, many people who voted for Trump originally are embarrassed that they did. Hopefully, the majority of them will choose to vote in the upcoming election.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: If Trump Directs Mcgahn to Fire Mueller, is That Really Obstruction

    Remember this post on election night 2020. And look at your 401K. Your fake news. Trump approval rating today 52%.

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