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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
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    Default Re: Does the Owner of a Lakebed Own the River That Feeds It

    budwad stated the Ten Mile emptied into the Hudson, I was just correcting him. That TMR is a different river.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    Default Re: Does the Owner of a Lakebed Own the River That Feeds It

    Quote Quoting arcticranger
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    budwad stated the Ten Mile emptied into the Hudson, I was just correcting him. That TMR is a different river.
    Gotcha

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
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    15

    Default Re: Does the Owner of a Lakebed Own the River That Feeds It

    Quote Quoting jk
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    You have a right to boat on Luxton Lake. There is no lake so that right is meaningless.
    That's an interesting comment because we kayak and canoe on the TMR all the time, all ten miles of it, passing through the lakes it feeds. There are areas 50-100 ft wide and one doesn't need more than 5ft to kayak in any water. Why would kayaking the Ten Mile River through the old Luxton Lake portion be different than the rest of it?

  4. #24
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    Jan 2006
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    Default Re: Does the Owner of a Lakebed Own the River That Feeds It

    Quote Quoting arcticranger
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    That's an interesting comment because we kayak and canoe on the TMR all the time, all ten miles of it, passing through the lakes it feeds. There are areas 50-100 ft wide and one doesn't need more than 5ft to kayak in any water. Why would kayaking the Ten Mile River through the old Luxton Lake portion be different than the rest of it?

    I’m basing the lack of right to traverse the waters of tmr on your and Budwads belief it is not a legally navigable waterway. If true, in areas where the waterway is bound on both sides of the waterway by a common owner, they can control the use of the waterway where it lies upon their property.


    From the link I gave you earlier


    Ownership of Lands Under Water
     NewYorkStatederivesitsownershipinlands underwater based upon what was at the time defined as the state’s navigable waters
     Even where the lands underwater a privately owned, if the waters are navigable, the public has an easement to use the watercourse or body of water for travel like other highways generally
    so, inversely if the waterway is not navigable, there would be no right to use the waterway by the public.

    Check out the link I gave you. It’s a PowerPoint presentation but there is much to be gleaned from it.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    47.606 N 122.332 W in body, still at 90 S in my mind.
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    Default Re: Does the Owner of a Lakebed Own the River That Feeds It

    This is an issue that surfaces in the kayaking community often.

    The right use the TMR would be dependent on state laws regarding access. The best way to find out more about these rights are going to be to contact the local kayaking clubs. Some states accord ownership only to the high-water shoreline of the river and others to the center of the river and everything in between. Many don't convey ownership to the water so, as you're floating upon it you're generally home free...legally. That said, some nasty incidents have occurred.

    All of this said, it doesn't really cover you're getting to the river.
    "Where do those stairs go?"
    "They go up!"

  6. #26
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    Jan 2006
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    Default Re: Does the Owner of a Lakebed Own the River That Feeds It

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
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    This is an issue that surfaces in the kayaking community often.

    The right use the TMR would be dependent on state laws regarding access. The best way to find out more about these rights are going to be to contact the local kayaking clubs. Some states accord ownership only to the high-water shoreline of the river and others to the centerer.
    your contention is incorrect if the waterway has not had the capacity for trade or travel. After looking at a few pictures of TMR, I canít see how it could be deemed capable of having the capacity for trade or travel.

    If such is true, access would be irrelevant


    https://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/74771.html

    Public Right of Navigation
    Waterways that are affected by tides are considered "navigable-in-law" and the public has a right to navigate on them regardless of who owns the bed or whether the waterway is posted. In contrast, waterways crossing private lands which are not affected by tides are "navigable-in-fact" and subject to the public right of navigation only if the waterway has or had the capacity for trade or travel.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
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    6,460

    Default Re: Does the Owner of a Lakebed Own the River That Feeds It

    Quote Quoting arcticranger
    View Post
    OK so my post did get lost I'll try again.

    buwad has the history of Luxton Lake correct. Hey man who are you and how did you know all that?

    The dam was dynamited in 1981 and the lake drained leaving the river as before. The community unsuccessfully sued a construction firm for breaking the dam. The lakebed went to tax auction a few times and in 1992 was bought by the current owner.

    Regarding the easement all deeds in the community have this language:

    All that parcel of land < description of parcel being purchased >

    TOGETHER with a perpetual easement in and to Luxton Lake for all purposes of fishing, boating and bathing over and upon the "Beach and Recreation Area" as shown upon a map entitled "Lakeridge Estates" filed in the Sullivan County Clerks office on November 5th 1981 as Map no 887.

    TOGETHER with the right to keep and maintain a boat on Luxton Lake.

    TOGETHER with the right the use the "Clubhouse" described on a map of "Lakeridge Estates", subject however to an annual fee payable to the seller herein or to a Homeowners Association to be formed for the purpose of maintaining said recreation area and clubhouse < description of fee >.

    The use of the Clubhouse shall be at the sole option of Davis and Pearl S. Hunter and they have no obligation whatsoever to join the clubhouse.



    I think Davis Hunter owned the lake and surrounding land at this point, 1981, prior to the draining and subsequent tax foreclosure. I need to get this map 887 to see what "Beach and Recreation Area" refers to. It may refer to a 30+ acre strip of land along the western side of the former lake which Hunter called "community land". I'll attach a link to a map in a following post. I don't see a way to upload images that aren't from a website.

    My questions are:

    1) what do our easements to the "Beach and Recreation Area" mean today?

    2) what rights do we have to the river which now flows through the privately owned lakebed?

    I don't think Ten Mile River is legally navigable. Parts of it are very deep with wild rapids - there have been a number of drownings at boy scout camps - while other parts of very shallow and narrow. But it has "protected" status in NYS whatever that means. We do still fish and canoe the deeper parts here, even though the lakebed owner opposes it.

    To be fair here, she fought hard to get the dam rebuilt in the 90s and was treated badly by the community. I don't blame her for feeling negatively toward some of them. I also share my alma mater with her!
    JK is a troll and someone who makes up law to his own liking and to discredit my posts for personal reasons. He changes the discussion and makes false arguments supported by bad interpretation of the statutes and case just to keep the argument going. It's all misdirection that has nothing to do with the real issues. The real issue here is whether or not the properties along the lake and those with easements to the water's edge still have littoral rights.

    I have given you the case law of the state of NY with regard to if the properties along TMR still have rights by virtue of the easements that were granted to the water's edge and those properties that had frontage along the lake.

    You need to get the community together and create a legal fund, hire an attorney and file suit and let the court decide if all the properties along the river and those with easements to access the lake have littoral right now that the lake is no more.

    I think you do and I which the community all the luck in bringing this community back from the past.

    Quote Quoting jk
    View Post
    if you seriously wish me to address this, you need to stop your bullshit. I can refute your statement but won’t bother if this is merely an attempt to engage me to argue.

    again, I can refute this claim but won’t do so until you assure me this is a valid attempt to engage a discussion and not simply a “i told you so” act.


    ibid

    ibid

    so, the ball is in your court. If you wish to actually engage in a discussion, I can do so. If you simply wish to argue, I have no desire to do so.
    Now take your foot out of your mouth.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
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    47.606 N 122.332 W in body, still at 90 S in my mind.
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    Default Re: Does the Owner of a Lakebed Own the River That Feeds It

    Quote Quoting jk
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    your contention is incorrect if the waterway has not had the capacity for trade or travel. After looking at a few pictures of TMR, I can’t see how it could be deemed capable of having the capacity for trade or travel.

    If such is true, access would be irrelevant


    https://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/74771.html
    According to your link the river, if it can support any sort of vessel as long as it can float and navigate the river (in this case). If there is a history of the river being used in a recreational capacity it bolsters the claim of it being navigable.

    NYS has a very active WW kayaking and rafting community. This couldn't be possible if rivers were not considered navigable in fact. they aren't trudging along pulling their raft down a rill and claiming it navigable. There are numerous clubs that support these activities and, I'm sure, have contributed to the legal wrangling that enforces users rights to use these rivers.

    While this doesn't pertain to accessing the river, it is most definitely relevant to use of the river. River access is a constant issue in the river boating community and usually comes down to permission. Many clubs have negotiated with landowners for access for club members.
    "Where do those stairs go?"
    "They go up!"

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    38,734

    Default Re: Does the Owner of a Lakebed Own the River That Feeds It

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
    View Post
    According to your link the river, if it can support any sort of vessel as long as it can float and navigate the river (in this case). If there is a history of the river being used in a recreational capacity it bolsters the claim of it being navigable.

    NYS has a very active WW kayaking and rafting community. This couldn't be possible if rivers were not considered navigable in fact. they aren't trudging along pulling their raft down a rill and claiming it navigable. There are numerous clubs that support these activities and, I'm sure, have contributed to the legal wrangling that enforces users rights to use these rivers.

    While this doesn't pertain to accessing the river, it is most definitely relevant to use of the river. River access is a constant issue in the river boating community and usually comes down to permission. Many clubs have negotiated with landowners for access for club members.
    If you read my post you will realize I actually looked at picture of the “river”. Way too many places it is little more than a trickling stream to consider it actually navigable. Of course I’m not the final say so on any of this. Merely giving my opinion.


    But we aren’t talking about all the rivers in New York. We are talking about tmr. I’m sure there are many navigable rivers in New York. I just don’t believe tmr fits the bill.

    Quote Quoting budwad
    View Post
    JK is a troll and someone who makes up law to his own liking and to discredit my posts for personal reasons. He changes the discussion and makes false arguments supported by bad interpretation of the statutes and case just to keep the argument going. It's all misdirection that has nothing to do with the real issues. The real issue here is whether or not the properties along the lake and those with easements to the water's edge still have littoral rights.

    I have given you the case law of the state of NY with regard to if the properties along TMR still have rights by virtue of the easements that were granted to the water's edge and those properties that had frontage along the lake.

    You need to get the community together and create a legal fund, hire an attorney and file suit and let the court decide if all the properties along the river and those with easements to access the lake have littoral right now that the lake is no more.

    I think you do and I which the community all the luck in bringing this community back from the past.



    Now take your foot out of your mouth.
    my foot in my mouth? You’re the one who has returned trolling me.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
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    47.606 N 122.332 W in body, still at 90 S in my mind.
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    Default Re: Does the Owner of a Lakebed Own the River That Feeds It

    I did note that you looked at an image of the river. Bear in mind that my wee little WW kayaks and my 18' sea kayaks have an incredibly shallow draft and if I can get it to float down it it becomes navigable in fact. If there is a history of this river being floated by other boaters than it only supports the claim.

    I also looked at a satellite image and it's looks totally floatable to me.

    EDIT: I also did a little searching and the TMR does show up as being a recreational corridor for kayaking and canoeing.
    "Where do those stairs go?"
    "They go up!"

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