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  1. #11
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    Mar 2016
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    Default Re: Loss of Use - Reasonable Substitute Car Value

    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    You didn't fully answer my questions: Did you actually rent a car for $70 per day? If the answer to that question is no, did you incur any costs for substitute transportation? If so, what costs did you actually incur?
    yes for 2 weeks i rented a car for around 70$/day and the last week i rented a car for around 50$/day. I didn't rent a car over week-end.

    But what if person simply doesn't have money to rent a car? Then he can't submit the receipts and therefore can't recover his losses. That sounds unjust, and probably that's why in the case that i mentioned earlier judge stated that the quote from rental agency should be enough to calculate the loss and you don't need to provide actual receipts. I did submit rental quotes to the insurance company because i don't have receipts for week-ends

    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    Sure. It's because the insurer did not damage your car. The other driver did. I'm not sure where you're getting from the standard policy language that it's appropriate to sue the insurer, but the most important language is the statement that the insurer "will pay for damages . . . for which any covered person becomes legally liable." The liability rests with the other driver. The insurer's duty is to it's insured, and that duty is to indemnify the insured. The insurer owes no duty to a third-party claimant such as yourself.
    The other driver accepted her liability. So her insurance paid for my car repair in full. That's why i thought they would pay loss of use on her behalf too.



    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    P.S. The $30 per day for 30 days thing has nothing to do with liability coverage. For example, in addition to carrying liability insurance, I carry rental car reimbursement coverage. That coverage pays if I need a rental car as a result of something covered by my collision or comprehensive coverage. For a situation in which a third-party needs a rental vehicle as a result of the insured's negligence, there is no limit (although the insurer certainly can object that the third-party's costs were not reasonable).
    Correct. But from what you told me earlier the reasonable value is defined by adjuster. Which i'm trying to challenge and looking for the case or wording in the legislation that defines "reasonable" more accurately. Again, if you've been driving Mercedes for years then you probably don't want to switch to Economy car bacause of someone's negligence?

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
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    7,345

    Default Re: Loss of Use - Reasonable Substitute Car Value

    Quote Quoting ivasergey
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    Thank you and sorry that i'm asking so many questions - for now it looks like i have 0 chances in the court because i don't even understnd the basics:-)

    My understanding was that when i buy Liability insurance let's say from Geico that covers first 25 000$ towards damages and losses caused by me to other driver's property. So other driver can't even sue me unless they think the damage is over 25k and my policy won't cover it:-) That's why i was going to sue insurance company first.
    No, that's not it. Let's say that the other driver says that you caused $20,000 of damage. Your insurer says it's just $10,000. Your insurer and the other driver can't reach agreement. So the other driver sues you — because you are the one who damaged his car, not your insurance company. What your insurance company will then do is provide you a lawyer for your defense and will defend the claim for you. Then if it goes to trial and you get a judgment against you, the insurer will pay that judgment up to the policy limits. If the judgment is more than the policy limits then you'd have pay the extra yourself. In this example it wouldn't be likely that the judgment would exceed $25,000 since the other driver is claiming just $20,000 in damages. So you'd not pay anything out of pocket for this. But even though the claim is still within policy limits, the other driver has to sue you rather than your insurance company if the other driver and your insurance company cannot reach agreement.

    Quote Quoting ivasergey
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    And honestly now i'm confused - Liability insurance is mandatory at least in Texas but from what you're saying it doesn't really protect me from liability and other people can still sue me. Why do i need it then?:-)
    Because, as explained above, the insurance ensures that in the event of a judgment the injured party will get his/her damages paid, at least up to the policy limits. A lot of people couldn't afford to pay even a few thousand dollars in judgment without insurance, which would leave a lot of injured parties without compensation for their injuries. This law ensures that they'll get that compensation. And if you do have assets that the injured party can go after, you want to have sufficient insurance to cover more than just the minimum the state requires so that you won't put your assets at risk if you are at fault in an accident.

  3. #13
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    Mar 2013
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    17,053

    Default Re: Loss of Use - Reasonable Substitute Car Value

    Quote Quoting ivasergey
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    yes for 2 weeks i rented a car for around 70$/day and the last week i rented a car for around 50$/day. I didn't rent a car over week-end.
    You're making the adjuster's argument for him. You want $70 per day for 20 days = $1400. You admit that you didn't rent a car on weekends so that's 4 days you aren't entitled to. You also admit that you rented a car for a week at $50 per day so that's $20 per day for 5 days that you aren't entitled to. Further, you were satisfied to rent a car for one week at $50 per day, so you should have been satisfied to rent one for the other two weeks for $50 per day. And if you are OK with $50 per day, why not $30 per day?

    Quote Quoting ivasergey
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    But what if person simply doesn't have money to rent a car?
    That's easy. A reasonable person would say to the adjuster "I need a rental car while mine is in the shop, can you do that for me." And the adjuster will say "Sure, we have a direct bill with ____ Rent a Car. Drop your car at the shop. We'll pay for an economy car and they'll bill us direct." Then the reasonable person would say "Thank you, that's all I need."

    Quote Quoting ivasergey
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    The other driver accepted her liability. So her insurance paid for my car repair in full. That's why i thought they would pay loss of use on her behalf too.
    They will. They will pay $30 per day which is all that a reasonable person would need for a temporary substitute vehicle.

    Quote Quoting ivasergey
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    Correct. But from what you told me earlier the reasonable value is defined by adjuster. Which i'm trying to challenge and looking for the case or wording in the legislation that defines "reasonable" more accurately.
    There aren't likely to be any cases that define "reasonable" without context. It's usually defined in relation to the subject matter. You can try Google Scholar where you can review appellate case decisions. You'll probably have to wade through hundreds of them.

    Quote Quoting ivasergey
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    Again, if you've been driving Mercedes for years then you probably don't want to switch to Economy car bacause of someone's negligence?
    Obviously you don't want to. But the reality is that for a temporary substitute vehicle the negligent driver is only obligated to you for an "adequate" vehicle. If you want the Mercedes, you pay the difference.

    By the way, you seem to be arguing the same point over and over again. If you aren't satisfied with the opinions that you have received you are welcome to consult an attorney.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
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    833

    Default Re: Loss of Use - Reasonable Substitute Car Value

    You should look at your own insurance policy and find out how much your company would have paid per day had you gone thru your insurance. My guess, is that it is similar. Some companies even go as low as 20 or 25 per day.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
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    18

    Default Re: Loss of Use - Reasonable Substitute Car Value

    Quote Quoting adjusterjack
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    You're making the adjuster's argument for him. You want $70 per day for 20 days = $1400. You admit that you didn't rent a car on weekends so that's 4 days you aren't entitled to. You also admit that you rented a car for a week at $50 per day so that's $20 per day for 5 days that you aren't entitled to. Further, you were satisfied to rent a car for one week at $50 per day, so you should have been satisfied to rent one for the other two weeks for $50 per day. And if you are OK with $50 per day, why not $30 per day?



    That's easy. A reasonable person would say to the adjuster "I need a rental car while mine is in the shop, can you do that for me." And the adjuster will say "Sure, we have a direct bill with ____ Rent a Car. Drop your car at the shop. We'll pay for an economy car and they'll bill us direct." Then the reasonable person would say "Thank you, that's all I need."



    They will. They will pay $30 per day which is all that a reasonable person would need for a temporary substitute vehicle.



    There aren't likely to be any cases that define "reasonable" without context. It's usually defined in relation to the subject matter. You can try Google Scholar where you can review appellate case decisions. You'll probably have to wade through hundreds of them.



    Obviously you don't want to. But the reality is that for a temporary substitute vehicle the negligent driver is only obligated to you for an "adequate" vehicle. If you want the Mercedes, you pay the difference.

    By the way, you seem to be arguing the same point over and over again. If you aren't satisfied with the opinions that you have received you are welcome to consult an attorney.
    Thanks for your help. I do agree with the most of your answers except i don't like this "But the reality is that for a temporary substitute vehicle the negligent driver is only obligated to you for an "adequate" vehicle" :-) so i'll try to spend more time looking for the cases and articles on the Internet.

  6. #16
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    Jul 2018
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    Default Re: Loss of Use - Reasonable Substitute Car Value

    Quote Quoting ivasergey
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    But what if person simply doesn't have money to rent a car? Then he can't submit the receipts and therefore can't recover his losses. That sounds unjust
    Since this hypothetical has nothing to do with your situation, who cares?


    Quote Quoting ivasergey
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    The other driver accepted her liability. So her insurance paid for my car repair in full. That's why i thought they would pay loss of use on her behalf too.
    If a liability insurer determines that its insured is legally liable, then it will pay damages that it believes are reasonably recoverable from the insured. Your issue is that the other party's insurer apparently doesn't think your claim is reasonable.

    I'm not sure where you think this discussion is going. I've already told you that no insurer is going to pay you more than you incurred for substitute transportation, and I don't think you've said anywhere in this thread what you actually incurred. If the insurer's adjuster doesn't think the amounts you actually incurred are reasonable, then it may offer to pay something less. You can either accept that amount and move on with your life or sue the other driver and see what the court decides.

  7. #17
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    Mar 2016
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    Default Re: Loss of Use - Reasonable Substitute Car Value

    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    I'm not sure where you think this discussion is going. I've already told you that no insurer is going to pay you more than you incurred for substitute transportation, and I don't think you've said anywhere in this thread what you actually incurred. If the insurer's adjuster doesn't think the amounts you actually incurred are reasonable, then it may offer to pay something less. You can either accept that amount and move on with your life or sue the other driver and see what the court decides.
    Thank you. You really helped me to understand how it works. The only thing i need to do now is to look for the similar cases in order to understand if it makes sense to go to Small Claims court or not. If there were cases where "reasonable" was discussed in more details and judge agreed that "reasonable transportation" doesn't mean the same if you're driving car A and car B.

  8. #18
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    Mar 2013
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    17,053

    Default Re: Loss of Use - Reasonable Substitute Car Value

    Quote Quoting ivasergey
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    Thank you. You really helped me to understand how it works. The only thing i need to do now is to look for the similar cases in order to understand if it makes sense to go to Small Claims court or not. If there were cases where "reasonable" was discussed in more details and judge agreed that "reasonable transportation" doesn't mean the same if you're driving car A and car B.
    Visit Google Scholar, put in your state, try searching various word combinations and see what comes up.

  9. #19
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    Mar 2016
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    18

    Default Re: Loss of Use - Reasonable Substitute Car Value

    Quote Quoting adjusterjack
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    Visit Google Scholar, put in your state, try searching various word combinations and see what comes up.
    Thanks once again for pointing me to the Google Scholar.

    I spent some time earlier today to look for similar cases and found the following:

    The nature of "loss of use" damages is described in California Jurisprudence Third as: "The measure of damages for the loss of use of personal property may be determined with reference to the rental value of similar property which the plaintiff can hire for use during the period when he is deprived of the use of his own property." (23 Cal.Jur.3d, Damages, § 69, pp. 129-130, italics added.)

    "To prove loss-of-use values, the plaintiff can either present receipts of costs incurred in renting a substitute vehicle or testify to other transportation costs, such as bus, train, or taxi fares." (Cal. Tort Damages (Cont. Ed. Bar 2d ed 2003) Vehicles and Other Personal Property, § 13.13, p. 397.) "If no substitute vehicle is rented or no receipts are available, the plaintiff can use advertisements indicating car rental costs, or obtain written documentation of car rental costs from a company that rents vehicles to the public. If necessary, the plaintiff can have someone who works for a car rental agency testify as an expert witness regarding reasonable rental costs." (Ibid.).


    "The value of the 'loss of use' of the car is the rental value of a substitute vehicle; …damages…may be determined with reference to the rental value of similar property which the plaintiff can hire for use during the period when he is deprived of the use of his own property." (Collin v. American Empire Insurance Co. (1994) 21 Cal.App.4th 787, 818



    That's California law.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    623

    Default Re: Loss of Use - Reasonable Substitute Car Value

    Quote Quoting ivasergey
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    "The value of the 'loss of use' of the car is the rental value of a substitute vehicle; …damages…may be determined with reference to the rental value of similar property which the plaintiff can hire for use during the period when he is deprived of the use of his own property." (Collin v. American Empire Insurance Co. (1994) 21 Cal.App.4th 787, 818[/I]


    That's California law.
    BUT, now your problem is finding a legal definition of "Similar property"!

    A Geo Metro could be considered "similar" to a Mercedes in that they both will get you from point A to point B warm safe and dry while a bicycle would not be considered 'similar' to either.
    You could argue that a Geo is not similar to a Mercedes but by the same token you might hate the color red and would feel that a Red Mercedes is not similar to your blue Mercedes.

    So you are still left with the argument of "what is similar".

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