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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    This has been a very instructive process.

    I'd like to thank flyingron, RJR, zeljo, cdwjava, and acai for their patient discussion and helping contribute to a better understanding of the issues.

    Hopefully this helps not only me but others in understanding the nuances of the law.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    17,049

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    You're welcome.

    Will you come back and let us know if you beat the ticket or not?

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    Quote Quoting adjusterjack
    View Post
    You're welcome.

    Will you come back and let us know if you beat the ticket or not?
    Only if I win! FYI, my attorney instructed me to discuss with prosecutor beforehand to let him know I'm not interested in setting precedent for the non conforming sign. Would never see a judge if the prosecutor agrees to dismiss.

    Either way, hopefully with something that provides more insight.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    17,049

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    Quote Quoting Cogito22
    View Post
    Only if I win!
    Then if we never see you again we will assume that you were found guilty and paid the fine.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    Spoke with the prosecutor regarding my case and he scowled at the idea that the sign was non-conforming. He told me that the judge would watch the video and basically ignore the statute to enter a conviction.

    He said it would be better for me to request a continuance and obtain counsel if I intend to take it to trial before the judge so that's what I did.

    Looks like I'm forced to hire counsel as my mediator in order to make them more receptive to the merits of the case.

    To be continued...

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    310

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    Counsel, though, costs money. Is it worth it? And do you really need it? I wouldn't blindly trust the prosecutor. I'd watch a few traffic court trials to get an idea how fair judges are in that court, especially with pro per defendants.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    I don't trust him. In fact later on after having some time to reflect I realized he has no idea about the argument I was intending to make. He just looks at it as we have you dead to rights on video. It doesn't enter his consciousness that he has a statutory standard to meet and that he hasn't met it on the merits, which I can demonstrate in court.

    However, I also suspect that the reason he is so confident is that judge is not going to listen to the message because as a layman I'm a substandard messenger.

    It will sound like brilliant legal theory coming from my counsel whereas it would sound like a half baked, novel, legal fiction coming from me.

    My attorney liked my argument but as he told me, he's had cases he won and shouldn't and cases he lost and shouldn't. The judge can rule however he wants and sometimes they will rule against you if they want to find you guilty for a traffic violation with the idea that it can be sorted out in an appellate court if you find it that egregious.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    7,626

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    Quote Quoting Cogito22
    View Post
    However, I also suspect that the reason he is so confident is that judge is not going to listen to the message because as a layman I'm a substandard messenger.

    It will sound like brilliant legal theory coming from my counsel whereas it would sound like a half baked, novel, legal fiction coming from me.
    That's exactly why laymen representing themselves can, in fact, be substandard messengers. The attorney is going to know how to put it in terms that the court understands and back it up, whereas a layperson isn't necessarily going to have that skill. An attorney is also going to be able to quickly recover from any challenges that may arise when presenting the theory.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    Case dismissed.

    Hired a well known and respected attorney. He presented the reasons that the sign was improperly placed to the prosecutor. The prosecutor could have requested a continuance from the judge to allow the officer to show at a subsequent trial date, however in deference to my attorney and in part because he saw that it was a defensible case that had merits, he did not object to the motion to dismiss.

    My attorney requested to keep all the documentation for the case I built as he thought it was sound and useful.

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