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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    326

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    There are no certainties in a traffic courtroom, but the statute you quoted would reasonably apply to a sign missing from both above and the left of the intersection (Fact 1), because that absolutely makes it significantly less conspicuous to drivers turning left. I think Fact 2 is less relevant because, even if you missed the qualification due to its low position, it wouldn't make you break the law. I doubt you will find anyone here with the exact courtroom experience in Illinois, but you have a good case. Better if you can testify you actually did not see the sign.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    19,482

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    Can you please answer the question this forum asks automatically and you've decliend to answer every step of the way.

    WHAT STATE ARE YOU IN?

    It's not worth wasting time on if you can't answer this.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    Quote Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    Can you please answer the question this forum asks automatically and you've decliend to answer every step of the way.

    WHAT STATE ARE YOU IN?

    It's not worth wasting time on if you can't answer this.
    You logically deduced it. Thank you.

    Quote Quoting zeljo
    View Post
    There are no certainties in a traffic courtroom, but the statute you quoted would reasonably apply to a sign missing from both above and the left of the intersection (Fact 1), because that absolutely makes it significantly less conspicuous to drivers turning left. I think Fact 2 is less relevant because, even if you missed the qualification due to its low position, it wouldn't make you break the law. I doubt you will find anyone here with the exact courtroom experience in Illinois, but you have a good case. Better if you can testify you actually did not see the sign.
    This may be the crux of it. That the case turns in part on the law but also greatly on less technical aspects that are much more subjective such as the disposition of all parties.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    19,482

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    I wasn't arguing, the MUTCD is probably a better than anything else yardstick to use to determine if the placement was proper. Common sense says the right side is not where you'd expect it if I understand what you're saying (can you give a google maps link for the intersetion).

    I agree with Zeijo.

    There's no point in calling people names here. I continually pointed out that MUTCD compliance was something that would be state specific and up until post #18, we didn't know this was Illinois. I can tell you in many states, failure to comply with MUTCD is not prima facie exculpatory on its own right. The statutes do not read as they do in this case (actually, as we stated it's not prima facie excuplatory here but it's strongly implied).

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    I'm not going to post the exact intersection but it is similar to this one where the sign is on the right instead of being on the far left hand corner.

    https://24h.rip/SkbmmS7

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    17,612

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    That sign, if anything, works against you. My vantage point is, what, 3 car lengths away from the sign and I can CLEARLY see the red no-left-turn warning. It wouldn't matter if it was a foot higher or a foot lower. I could still see it.

    What I can't make out is the time limits below it but the red warning is enough to make me slow down and check out the times.

    If you go to court with a photo like that and argue that the sign is not at the proper height, I think you lose.

    But don't pay any attention to me. I'm a know-nothing according to Chucky.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    I'm not quite sure why some people think that the statutory standards don't prevail.

    Anyone else have any other thoughts based on the picture demonstrating that the official device is not in the proper position?

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    19,482

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    OK, I've looked at your picture and compared it to the MUTCD. The problem you have here is the that the MUTCD doesn't say the sign has to be on the left side or overhead. "Should" is a recommendation but not obligatory.
    However, feel free to try to push the issue that it's not following all the recommendations.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    Quote Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    OK, I've looked at your picture and compared it to the MUTCD. The problem you have here is the that the MUTCD doesn't say the sign has to be on the left side or overhead. "Should" is a recommendation but not obligatory.
    However, feel free to try to push the issue that it's not following all the recommendations.
    The MUTCD states:

    Figure 2B-4 Movement Prohibition and Lane Control Signs and Plaques

    If No Left Turn (R3-2) signs (see Figure 2B-4) are used, at least one should be placed over the roadway, at the far left-hand corner of the intersection, on a median, or in conjunction with the STOP sign or YIELD sign located on the near right-hand corner.

    1. Are you seeing otherwise?
    2. The MUTCD requires this positioning. The statute requires proper positioning. If you are not going by the MUTCD then what serves as the basis for lawful proper positioning?

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    17,612

    Default Re: No Left Turn Sign Does Not Appear to Comply with MUTCD

    You wanted real life court examples. Here's one:

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...en&as_sdt=4,14

    In affirming the driver's conviction the court noted:

    The speed limit and traffic signs and devices are presumptively valid. It was for Kurtev to rebut that presumption with competent evidence, which he failed to do.

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