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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Deprived Due Process at Protection Order Hearing

    Quote Quoting theunrealthing
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    Can you read?
    Yes, I can. Moreover, I studied the hearsay rule in law school and have continued to study it and apply it in years of law practice. You on the other hand are not reading it closely and obviously have no experience with the hearsay rule. Instead, you are trying to add something to it that is not there to get to what you think hearsay is.

    Quote Quoting theunrealthing
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    You have to look at the definition of "declarant."
    The definition of "declarant" is given in (B): it is simply "a person who makes a statement." You are the declarant with respect to your affidavits because you are the one making a statement.

    Quote Quoting theunrealthing
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    It's a statement made by someone not at trial -- e.g., "bobby told me that sally did X, but I personally did not see sally do that myself."
    You did not read it carefully. It does not say hearsay is a statement made by someone not at trial. It says that hearsay is: "is a statement, other than one made by the declarant whiletestifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted." (Bolding added.) Hearsay focuses on the statement being made outside of court, not whether the person shows up for trial. The person might well be at the trial, but his statements made outside of court are hearsay and cannot be admitted unless some exception applies. And nothing in the rule limits hearsay to just those things the person repeats from someone else, as you want it to be. It includes ANy statement made outside of court, including statements of what the person making the statement (the declarant) personally witnessed. Read the rule again for what it says rather than what you want it to say. It says that any out of court statement of the declarant (the person making the statement) offered to prove the matter asserted is hearsay. Not just things the declarant heard from someone else — that limitation is nowhere in the rule. It simply says "a statement," which covers any kind of statement.

    There are some instances in which affidavits and other statements made out of court are admissible at trial, but you have to find the exception in the rules that cover it. Otherwise, if the opposing side makes a hearsay objection and you can't point to an exception that allows it, the court will sustain the hearsay objection. Affidavits are much more commonly used in summary judgment motions — See Ohio Civ. rule 56. You don't have hearings for summary judgment, so the affidavits provide what is needed to substitute for in court testimony. You are not in a summary judgment situation; you are facing a hearing on your petition. At the hearing, the judge will want to hear you testify about what you saw and heard that supports your petition; the judge cannot use your affidavits instead as they are hearsay. You lose nothing by this: you get your chance to tell your story to the judge in person. So focus on what you are going to say and what other evidence (other witnesses, etc) you have to support your case. That's what is important now.

  2. #32

    Default Re: Deprived Due Process at Protection Order Hearing

    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    Just because it says you can attach evidence doesn't mean that you can ignore the other rules with respect to evidence.

    You will get nowhere either here or in court by asserting people are lying even if you believe them to be incorrect. I guarntee you use the word "Lie" in court when pointing out an error and you will get sanctioned quickly. You need to learn how to make your points without making derrogatory comments.

    The underlying case is not heard based on a motion no matter WHAT evidence you think you have. You can only present limited material in support of that motion. And no you can't just throw a lot of stuff at the judge with a "Motion to dismiss because I'm write and the other guy is wrong."

    As they say in the commercial, that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

    You've had a noted attorney give you advice here. He's been very gracious to do that for free. You've used up that patience (and most everybody else's). You'll have to go pay for further assistance.
    What other rules of evidence are your referring to. I am allowed to attach any evidence or factual matter that supports my case. Simple as that.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Deprived Due Process at Protection Order Hearing

    Quote Quoting theunrealthing
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    What other rules of evidence are your referring to. I am allowed to attach any evidence or factual matter that supports my case. Simple as that.
    Emotions are not facts. You are allowing your emotions to rule you. That is a lot of why you cannot find an attorney. Chances are good it is why you ended up in court.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Deprived Due Process at Protection Order Hearing

    Quote Quoting theunrealthing
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    What other rules of evidence are your referring to. I am allowed to attach any evidence or factual matter that supports my case. Simple as that.
    If you’re allowed, then just do it. You’re clearly smarter than everyone at the court and attorneys. You have a hearing, you present your 973 pages of "evidence" there. Your first step is to go to court and fill out the request for the protection order. You turn it in and you will have hearing to present your evidence and the respondent will be allowed to be present, with an attorney, to defend themselves. You don't show up with your own made up forms that "look official" and you found on the internet along with hundreds of pages of typing and various types of technology and expect it to be attached to your original filing. You have to follow the same rules as everyone else. You have a hearing in a few weeks, they will listen to your "testimony" at that time.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Deprived Due Process at Protection Order Hearing

    Quote Quoting theunrealthing
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    What other rules of evidence are your referring to. I am allowed to attach any evidence or factual matter that supports my case. Simple as that.
    There is nothing in the Ohio rules of Civil Procedure that say you have right to attach "any evidence or factual matter" to the petition or complaint. Ohio Rule of Civil Procedure (Civ. R) 10 governs the form of pleadings (the petition or complaint and the answers to them are the pleadings). In that rule, the petition or complaint itself must contain all the facts that support the claim. Attachments are not needed or required except in two instances:

    (A) where the action is founded on a written document (e.g. a breach of contract claim where the contract was written) then the written document that is the basis for the claim must be attached to the pleading or it is not attached an explanation must be provided for why it is not attached; and

    (B) an affidavit of merit must be attached for medical, dental, optometric, and chiropractic liability claims.

    Your petition for an order of protection involves neither (A) nor (B). So the good news here is that the affidavits you wanted to attach were not required. And nothing in the rules say you have a right to attach things that are not required. So the court clerk did not violate any right of yours in not allowing the affidavits to be attached, and as they were not required no harm to your case resulted from not attaching them. The judge would not have read them upon filing anyway because they are not required and it would not have helped the judge at all to take the time to read them.

    Affidavits (other than the affidavit of merit for the medical related claims that Rule 10 requires) are most often used in summary judgment. But in that case, you would submit any affidavits you wanted the court to consider with the motion or response to the motion for summary judgment itself. See Civ. R. 56. So there is no need to attach affidavits to the petition for a protection order in anticipation that they might be needed later; you'd file them when the motion for summary judgment or other motion where they are necessary is filed.

    You are not facing a motion for summary judgment or anything else in which those affidavits are needed or would be useful. That's actually great news for you — that means you’ve gotten past the point where the other party can get it kicked out of court just on the pleadings. Instead, you've said that you have a full hearing set on the petition in November. That hearing is what will determine whether you succeed in getting the order. So it is that hearing that you need to focus your efforts on. Focusing on the affidavits is not a good use of your time and effort. You cannot get the affidavits admitted as evidence in that hearing. The affidavits are inadmissible hearsay as I have explained to you before. And you yourself earlier said you didn't expect the court to read the affidavits at the hearing. I think you know that what the court expects in the hearing to hear you testify at the hearing. It is your testimony at that hearing, along with all the other admissible evidence presented by each side at that hearing, that the judge may consider in making the ruling. The judge cannot consider things submitted outside the hearing — like affidavits. So again, I urge you to focus on what you will say at the hearing and what other evidence (other witnesses, admissible audio/video recordings you might have, or whatever) that are relevant to that hearing. That is what will determine whether you succeed or fail. So don't let yourself get distracted over the affidavit issue. That's not going to get you anywhere.

    Believe it or not, I really am trying to help you. I am not trying to undermine your effort to get the protection order. You are not an attorney and do not know the rules very well at all. That's to be expected. Pro se parties rarely do have a good grasp of the rules. So rather than attacking people who do know the rules for giving answers that are different than you want, you might stand back and accept that you don't know everything and welcome the help you do get. No one here has it out for you. I doubt the court clerk does either. You are frustrated because you don't know the rules well and your guesses at to what to do haven't turned out like you hoped. I get that. I see that with pro se parties a lot. But it's not fair for you to attack others for your lack of knowledge about what to do. Instead of attacking, take the opportunity to learn from those that do know how things work. You'll come out a lot better in the end that way. The old saying goes that you "can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." The meaning of that old saying is that get a lot more from others when you are nice to them than when you are abrasive or attacking. So while your first instinct might be to attack when something doesn't work like you thought, you might consider that doing that hurts you rather than helps you get to where you want to go.
    .

  6. #36

    Default Re: Deprived Due Process at Protection Order Hearing

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    There is nothing in the Ohio rules of Civil Procedure that say you have right to attach "any evidence or factual matter" to the petition or complaint. Ohio Rule of Civil Procedure (Civ. R) 10 governs the form of pleadings (the petition or complaint and the answers to them are the pleadings). In that rule, the petition or complaint itself must contain all the facts that support the claim. Attachments are not needed or required except in two instances:

    (A) where the action is founded on a written document (e.g. a breach of contract claim where the contract was written) then the written document that is the basis for the claim must be attached to the pleading or it is not attached an explanation must be provided for why it is not attached; and

    (B) an affidavit of merit must be attached for medical, dental, optometric, and chiropractic liability claims.

    Your petition for an order of protection involves neither (A) nor (B). So the good news here is that the affidavits you wanted to attach were not required. And nothing in the rules say you have a right to attach things that are not required. So the court clerk did not violate any right of yours in not allowing the affidavits to be attached, and as they were not required no harm to your case resulted from not attaching them. The judge would not have read them upon filing anyway because they are not required and it would not have helped the judge at all to take the time to read them.

    Affidavits (other than the affidavit of merit for the medical related claims that Rule 10 requires) are most often used in summary judgment. But in that case, you would submit any affidavits you wanted the court to consider with the motion or response to the motion for summary judgment itself. See Civ. R. 56. So there is no need to attach affidavits to the petition for a protection order in anticipation that they might be needed later; you'd file them when the motion for summary judgment or other motion where they are necessary is filed.

    You are not facing a motion for summary judgment or anything else in which those affidavits are needed or would be useful. That's actually great news for you — that means you’ve gotten past the point where the other party can get it kicked out of court just on the pleadings. Instead, you've said that you have a full hearing set on the petition in November. That hearing is what will determine whether you succeed in getting the order. So it is that hearing that you need to focus your efforts on. Focusing on the affidavits is not a good use of your time and effort. You cannot get the affidavits admitted as evidence in that hearing. The affidavits are inadmissible hearsay as I have explained to you before. And you yourself earlier said you didn't expect the court to read the affidavits at the hearing. I think you know that what the court expects in the hearing to hear you testify at the hearing. It is your testimony at that hearing, along with all the other admissible evidence presented by each side at that hearing, that the judge may consider in making the ruling. The judge cannot consider things submitted outside the hearing — like affidavits. So again, I urge you to focus on what you will say at the hearing and what other evidence (other witnesses, admissible audio/video recordings you might have, or whatever) that are relevant to that hearing. That is what will determine whether you succeed or fail. So don't let yourself get distracted over the affidavit issue. That's not going to get you anywhere.

    Believe it or not, I really am trying to help you. I am not trying to undermine your effort to get the protection order. You are not an attorney and do not know the rules very well at all. That's to be expected. Pro se parties rarely do have a good grasp of the rules. So rather than attacking people who do know the rules for giving answers that are different than you want, you might stand back and accept that you don't know everything and welcome the help you do get. No one here has it out for you. I doubt the court clerk does either. You are frustrated because you don't know the rules well and your guesses at to what to do haven't turned out like you hoped. I get that. I see that with pro se parties a lot. But it's not fair for you to attack others for your lack of knowledge about what to do. Instead of attacking, take the opportunity to learn from those that do know how things work. You'll come out a lot better in the end that way. The old saying goes that you "can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." The meaning of that old saying is that get a lot more from others when you are nice to them than when you are abrasive or attacking. So while your first instinct might be to attack when something doesn't work like you thought, you might consider that doing that hurts you rather than helps you get to where you want to go.
    .


    Here's the local rules:

    8.1 CIVIL PLEADINGS AND MOTIONS DOCUMENT FILING REQUIREMENTS
    Any person who files a civil complaint with the Clerk shall, at the time of filing, provide the Clerk with an unbound
    copy of the case designation sheet, signed complaint and exhibits, or other attachments.


    Once again you're a moron -- the right to present evidence and factual matter to support teh claim is axiomatic as a basic due process right. It says right there, if I have those attachments I SHALL serve them to the clerk, and she should readily accept them, and even be asking me for them to make sure due process is respected. I had the right to do that, and she did not let me add those attachments. In the box on my petition, I wrote "see attached documents w/ affidavit and summary." This was in the box where it told me to summarize my allegations justifying the charges. It says I can attach as many additional pages as necessary. Those additional pages amounted to 200 pages of typed factual matter justifying the charges (i.e., not the sort of evidence that gets summoned at trial, such as an ancient text that needs to be closely examined to weight the merits of the conclusions drawn in the original petition). This statement "see attached documents..." suggests that those documents I refer to are part of the "petition." that was my will as the petitioner and she violated it. Natural due process principles confirm that these statements are to be considered whether she attached them to the document or not.

    The text you cited reads--

    Attachments are not needed or required except in two instances:

    (A) where the action is founded on a written document (e.g. a breach of contract claim where the contract was written) then the written document that is the basis for the claim must be attached to the pleading or it is not attached an explanation must be provided for why it is not attached; and


    It says they are NOT REQUIRED, but I have the RIGHT to do that IF I SO CHOOSE. You just commit fraudulent misrepresentation with intent to abduct. Congratulations. You're a criminal. Never did I say it was REQUIRED. Something being required has nothing to do with whether I have the right to do it or not. Moron.

    Stop harassing me now. The FBI's watching. And I've already been told the day will come when all my offenders meet Justice through criminal prosecution. There's a cold place in hell for people that perpetrate the kind of misconduct you're perpetrating.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Deprived Due Process at Protection Order Hearing

    Quote Quoting theunrealthing
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    You just commit fraudulent misrepresentation with intent to abduct. Congratulations. You're a criminal.
    No, I am not. And the fact that you think that something said in this thread that you don't agree with is a crime shows just how poorly you understand the law. Do you not know that a simple disagreement is not a crime? Evidently not. So my guess is that you don't understand either that calling someone a criminal when he isn't can be defamatory. I've not been convicted of any crime, and thus am not a criminal. And I have no fear of being prosecuted over this thread because I know I've committed no crime.

    Quote Quoting theunrealthing
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    The FBI's watching.
    No, it's not. The FBI doesn't care about what is said in this thread because no federal crime has been committed here. They might have had a good chuckle about it if you indeed actually wasted your time to report it. You really need to get a grip and realize that just because things do not go your way does not mean the world is conspiring against you and that those who disagree with you are not committing any crime. The right to free speech means the right to disagree, after all. Or didn't you learn about that, either?

    Quote Quoting theunrealthing
    View Post
    There's a cold place in hell for people that perpetrate the kind of misconduct you're perpetrating.
    I've always heard that hell was filled with flames and is very hot indeed. If I am to have a cold spot in hell, I'd much prefer that over roasting in the fire.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Deprived Due Process at Protection Order Hearing

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    No, I am not. And the fact that you think that something said in this thread that you don't agree with is a crime shows just how poorly you understand the law. Do you not know that a simple disagreement is not a crime? Evidently not. So my guess is that you don't understand either that calling someone a criminal when he isn't can be defamatory. I've not been convicted of any crime, and thus am not a criminal. And I have no fear of being prosecuted over this thread because I know I've committed no crime.



    No, it's not. The FBI doesn't care about what is said in this thread because no federal crime has been committed here. They might have had a good chuckle about it if you indeed actually wasted your time to report it. You really need to get a grip and realize that just because things do not go your way does not mean the world is conspiring against you and that those who disagree with you are not committing any crime. The right to free speech means the right to disagree, after all. Or didn't you learn about that, either?



    I've always heard that hell was filled with flames and is very hot indeed. If I am to have a cold spot in hell, I'd much prefer that over roasting in the fire.
    You're a liar. I won't even waste my breath. Fraud with intent to further a crime is criminal misconduct. It doesn't matter if the fraud happens within the context of a debate with disagreement.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Deprived Due Process at Protection Order Hearing

    Quote Quoting theunrealthing
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    You're a liar. I won't even waste my breath. Fraud with intent to further a crime is criminal misconduct. It doesn't matter if the fraud happens within the context of a debate with disagreement.
    Since you disagree with everything everyone says and continue your insane ramblings, why are you still here? No one is ever going to agree with your fantasies.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Deprived Due Process at Protection Order Hearing

    Quote Quoting theunrealthing
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    You're a liar. I won't even waste my breath. Fraud with intent to further a crime is criminal misconduct. It doesn't matter if the fraud happens within the context of a debate with disagreement.
    Call the FBI and turn in all of the criminals here.

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