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  1. #1
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    Default Delay in Return of Security Deposit With a Dispute Over Claimed Damages

    My question involves landlord-tenant law in the State of CA

    I moved out of a house July 26th and there was damage (buckling) to the floor boards that I had no knowledge of because my bed was over it. The LL claimed it was my fault, and quoted to me and ex-roommates still living there separately that 500 is to be deducted from my deposit, and the rest returned.

    My ex-roommates, fearing that the cost of repairs would be more, have held my deposit awaiting an actual invoice. The LL was notified of the damage by them, and he has yet to respond productively until today, he is now sending someone to get an estimate.

    I am currently asking for my deposit minus the 500 estimated in damages by the LL, before the estimate comes, because the LL is sending their own person and it is very likely my ex-roommates told them the whole floor will have to be redone.

    Can I demand my deposit minus the estimated deduction back (to ensure I don't get hit with more deductions in case the cost of repair is higher), and wash my hands of the situation? Does it matter that an estimate will be coming, if the estimate is after 21 days of me moving out?

    Some potentially pertinent factors:

    1. I was part of the original lease (beginning in SEP 2014 ending in SEP 2015), and went on verbal month-to-month, with documented evidence of request for a lease, without action on the part of the LL

    2. Sometime after SEP 2015, when the 1 year lease expired, our LL said that our "property manager", who was our only point of contact and our acting property manager, was never actually our property manager, and that he (the LL) was our alleged property manager as well as the LL the whole time. There is evidence that 1. he wasn't and 2. he and the previous property manager have been egregiously negligent in their response time to our issue updates (including dead tree in that had grown into power lines, and a furnace that was so damaged it was flaming out into the closet it was contained in, damaging circuitry within the closet that has deactivated a light in the garage, strangely).

    One complicating factor: The LL told the current tenants to resolve the deposit with me, and in a sense they have been holding what is my deposit, not the LL. BUT I was part of the original lease starting SEP 2014, so technically he's still withholding the deposits of the original renters, which I was one of (another has since moved out, and another still lives there). Given those complicating informalities, who legally is in possession of my deposit, and whose responsibility is it to return my deposit?

    I hope I can resolve the issue without going to court, but also the damage I believe is already disputable as to whether it was my fault or not (buckling of the boards requires excess moisture or is the product of a low quality//shifting foundation). I am preparing to hard stop demand that I get my deposit minus the 500 quoted deduction to settle the dispute, and I am wondering if I have a good case to be unyielding and demand that (in my biased) compromise, if I have a good case to take the LL to court, or if I have no case and should wait for the late estimate and potential augmentation of the deduction to occur.

    Thanks in advance for your time and help!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Post 21 Day Security Deposit Return Regarding Cost of Damages Dispute

    Quote Quoting patlahey17
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    I moved out of a house July 26th and there was damage (buckling) to the floor boards that I had no knowledge of because my bed was over it. The LL claimed it was my fault, and quoted to me and ex-roommates still living there separately that 500 is to be deducted from my deposit, and the rest returned.

    My ex-roommates, fearing that the cost of repairs would be more, have held my deposit awaiting an actual invoice. The LL was notified of the damage by them, and he has yet to respond productively until today, he is now sending someone to get an estimate.
    Do your ex-roommates have possession of your deposit? If so, why? Did you and your roommates have separate deposits or a single deposit? Is the current lease a month-to-month lease or a long term lease? Sounds like the former. Did you and your roommates have any sort of written agreement governing your relationships with each other?

    Quote Quoting patlahey17
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    Can I demand my deposit minus the estimated deduction back (to ensure I don't get hit with more deductions in case the cost of repair is higher), and wash my hands of the situation?
    I don't know what the second part of this question means, and you obviously can demand anything you like.

    Quote Quoting patlahey17
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    I was part of the original lease (beginning in SEP 2014 ending in SEP 2015), and went on verbal month-to-month, with documented evidence of request for a lease, without action on the part of the LL
    What does "verbal month-to-month" mean? A standard residential lease for a specified term will have a provision saying that, if neither the landlord nor the tenant gives notice to terminate the tenancy after expiration of the initial term, the tenancy automatically converts to a month-to-month tenancy under all the same terms. Did your "original lease" say anything like that?

    Quote Quoting patlahey17
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    in a sense they have been holding what is my deposit, not the LL.
    Huh?

    Quote Quoting patlahey17
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    Given those complicating informalities, who legally is in possession of my deposit, and whose responsibility is it to return my deposit?
    In some states, residential landlords are obligated to keep security deposits in interest bearing accounts, and I think some states even require that the accounts be f/b/o accounts in the tenants' names. California is not such a state. Whether the landlord or anyone else has "possession of [a security] deposit" is irrelevant and meaningless until the obligation to return a deposit exists. Needless to say, unless your landlord has turned over possession of an amount of money constituting "your deposit" to your former roommates (which we obviously have no way of knowing), your question is a meaningless question.

    While we're at it, why do you keep using the term "my deposit"? Did each of you and your former roommates give separate deposits to the landlord? That would be extremely unusual. Typically, X persons move in as co-tenants, a single deposit is given by all of them.

    Quote Quoting patlahey17
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    and whose responsibility is it to return my deposit?
    Unless you have contracts with the landlord and/or your former roommates that address this issue, the only person with any obligation to you regarding a security deposit is the landlord. However, the landlord's obligation is to all of the tenants jointly, not to any one of them (again, unless you have something in your lease to the contrary, which would be highly unusual). You can read through section 1950.5 of the Civil Code (specifically sub-section (g)(1)), but that section is not written in a way that clearly addresses situations involving multiple co-tenants.

    The bottom line is that you may very well not be entitled to anything until everyone has moved out, and this is yet another good reason for roommate agreements, even though the concept is often treated like a joke.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Delay in Return of Security Deposit With a Dispute Over Claimed Damages

    Part of the issue here is that there has apparently been a loosey-goosey end to your landlord-tenant relationship, rather than a clear end of your joint tenancy and the start of a new tenancy involving only your former roommates. I'm going to work from the assumption that you were originally all on a single lease with a single security deposit covering the tenancy.

    If you agreed, expressly or implicitly, that this was not the end of your co-tenancy, but that the same tenancy would continue with your being released from further obligation by your landlord and former roommates, then that's why you're in this situation. Your landlord will take the position that you are not entitled to a refund of the deposit because the tenancy has not in fact ended; and that you should arrange with your former roommates to refund you whatever share you are due, in association with the release that will eventually have the full deposit (or portion that is to be refunded) payable to them when they eventually end the tenancy. Under such an agreement, reimbursement due from your former roommates would not implicate landlord-tenant law, as they aren't your landlord and aren't subject to the security deposit law.

    Similarly, if you agreed that even though you were leaving the tenancy, the existing security deposit would roll over into your co-tenants' new rental arrangement, with you to receive any refund you were due from your former co-tenants, then once again your claim would be against them and would not fall under landlord-tenant law.

    If, on the other hand, you gave express written notice of your intent to terminate the tenancy as of a specific date, as described in Civil Code Sec. 1946.1, and made no actual or implied agreements with your landlord about rolling over the deposit or getting your "share" refunded by your former co-tenants, then the issue of a security deposit refund should fall under the state's security deposit law.

    Is anything in relation to this transition in writing? Your notice to the landlord? Any sort of release agreement entered with your landlord, your co-tenants, or both? If not in a formal agreement, is there something in texts or emails that might show an agreement?

    I don't really like the "sue 'em all and let the court figure it out" approach -- but if nobody can agree on who should be paying you the refund, you can take the landlord and your ex-roommates to small claims court and let them fight out between themselves who should pay you any money that is owed after deductions for damages.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Delay in Return of Security Deposit With a Dispute Over Claimed Damages

    Thank you both for the responses, I will potentially delete and create my response until I've worked out how to format the quote mechanism.

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    Part of the issue here is that there has apparently been a loosey-goosey end to your landlord-tenant relationship, rather than a clear end of your joint tenancy and the start of a new tenancy involving only your former roommates. I'm going to work from the assumption that you were originally all on a single lease with a single security deposit covering the tenancy.
    That's definitely a large chunk of the issue, which pg1067 is indirectly highlighting with his number of clarification questions.

    I was originally on a single lease with a single security deposit covering the tenancy, but that security deposit was verbally agreed upon to "roll-over" to new tenants, without exchange back with the LL. I believe this is implicit, not expressly agreed upon, because our LL accepted our rent and ignored our requests for a new lease. There is text/email evidence of the ignoring of requests for a renewed lease.

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    If you agreed, expressly or implicitly, that this was not the end of your co-tenancy, but that the same tenancy would continue with your being released from further obligation by your landlord and former roommates, then that's why you're in this situation. Your landlord will take the position that you are not entitled to a refund of the deposit because the tenancy has not in fact ended; and that you should arrange with your former roommates to refund you whatever share you are due, in association with the release that will eventually have the full deposit (or portion that is to be refunded) payable to them when they eventually end the tenancy. Under such an agreement, reimbursement due from your former roommates would not implicate landlord-tenant law, as they aren't your landlord and aren't subject to the security deposit law.
    RE the opening to this paragraph, it is difficult to say which of these two is the case, although it is more the latter (same tendency continues with my release). We unofficially had a random date deemed the beginning of our new agreement (our landlord raised the rent without a lease, tagging on to a verbal lease that was never formalized. There was never an official termination date for the verbal lease agreed upon). My roommates and I requested 6-9 months for the new lease agreement, there was a long radio silence, and then our LL started asking for higher rent, without (to my knowledge) expressing when the renewed agreement terminate. There is a chance that that agreement is over, but everything is so up in the air it's also arguable it isn't.

    Do these last two sentences help and/or hinder my case? If it is arguable that the latest agreement is over, would I have been technically in a verbal month-to-month lease? Does that help and/or hinder my case?


    If my case is actually not landlord-tenant law, what would it be/where should I look? Would the 21 day legal deadline not matter at all, if it isn't under landlord-tenant law?


    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    Similarly, if you agreed that even though you were leaving the tenancy, the existing security deposit would roll over into your co-tenants' new rental arrangement, with you to receive any refund you were due from your former co-tenants, then once again your claim would be against them and would not fall under landlord-tenant law.
    This is disappointing, I don't want to take my ex-roommates to court, but they're also why I haven't received my deposit minus the estimate quote of 500.



    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    Is anything in relation to this transition in writing? Your notice to the landlord? Any sort of release agreement entered with your landlord, your co-tenants, or both? If not in a formal agreement, is there something in texts or emails that might show an agreement?
    I have added some information from my responses above, there is a lot of texts and emails, but no formal agreement, to build up my explanation in the responses above.


    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    I don't really like the "sue 'em all and let the court figure it out" approach -- but if nobody can agree on who should be paying you the refund, you can take the landlord and your ex-roommates to small claims court and let them fight out between themselves who should pay you any money that is owed after deductions for damages.
    I don't like the idea of suing anyone, but I think my landlord has been negligent and doesn't deserve to use my money to fix the changes. I really don't want to sue my ex-roommates, but it sounds like with what is happening, and with how you answered, landlord-tenant law does not apply.

    My main goal is to just take the 500 loss but demand it now/soon, and if I do get an estimate that increases my deduction I really want to go to small claims court for it, because it hasn't been proven that the damage is due to me, and there is similar damage in at least one other part of the house that the LL said is normal wear and tear, but is deeming my damage my fault.

    Thank you Mr. Knowitall!

    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    Do your ex-roommates have possession of your deposit? If so, why? Did you and your roommates have separate deposits or a single deposit?

    My ex-roommates have the deposit because the new roommate that replaced me paid for their share of the deposit, but the money originally submitted for the deposit for the original lease (see my response to Mr. Knowitall) is still with the LL. Originally we had one single deposit, but since the original lease terminated we have been working internally to have separate deposits, to changeover roommates (which has happened 3-4 times in the time I've been at the house, after the original lease terminated).

    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    Is the current lease a month-to-month lease or a long term lease? Sounds like the former. Did you and your roommates have any sort of written agreement governing your relationships with each other?
    See my response to Mr. Knowitall, it's essentially arguable whether it is month-to-month currently. My roommates and I had no written agreement governing our relationship aside from how rent was to be paid for for each room, but there is a string of 3-4 changes in roommates where what we did in the past was have the leaving roommate be paid by the incoming roommate, to take care of the deposit currently held by the LL

    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    I don't know what the second part of this question means, and you obviously can demand anything you like.
    I mean is it in my legal right to expect this payment ASAP and threaten a lawsuit if it isn't repaid. This seems especially contingent on whether LL-tenant laws even apply here.



    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    What does "verbal month-to-month" mean? A standard residential lease for a specified term will have a provision saying that, if neither the landlord nor the tenant gives notice to terminate the tenancy after expiration of the initial term, the tenancy automatically converts to a month-to-month tenancy under all the same terms. Did your "original lease" say anything like that?
    I could not find any such provision in the lease for SEP 2014-15. I had read online when we were sorting this out that the law was unclear, but that if the landlord continued to accept our rental payments (which he did) that a month-to-month arrangement is set, if nothing is explicitly said. Clarification from you guys as the experts on how a verbal lease formalizes and when it is never formalized would help a lot here, because (please read my response to Mr. Knowitall), this was never cleared up.




    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    Huh?
    I think this was addressed in both my responses above and to Mr. Knowitall, they are holding my deposit because since the SEP 2014-15 lease expired all incoming tenants have been paying the outgoing tenants. Currently, my old roommates collected a deposit from the tenant that replaced me and are still holding that money that would be going to me.



    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    Whether the landlord or anyone else has "possession of [a security] deposit" is irrelevant and meaningless until the obligation to return a deposit exists. Needless to say, unless your landlord has turned over possession of an amount of money constituting "your deposit" to your former roommates (which we obviously have no way of knowing), your question is a meaningless question.

    While we're at it, why do you keep using the term "my deposit"? Did each of you and your former roommates give separate deposits to the landlord? That would be extremely unusual. Typically, X persons move in as co-tenants, a single deposit is given by all of them.
    Given my responses to you above and my response to Mr. Knowitall, does the obligation to return a deposit exist? Is it arguable either way, or completely not an obligation currently?

    I was on the SEP 2014-15 lease and paid into that deposit, what I'm referring to as my deposit is my share of that deposit.

    unless your landlord has turned over possession of an amount of money constituting "your deposit" to your former roommates... my LL hasn't. is he not obligated to (not suggesting he is, just inquiring). Currently my ex-roommates are requesting him to do a walk-through, refund the deposit of the original roommates of the SEP 2014-15 agreement minus the deductions, and start then receive a new deposit from the current tenants (only one of which was on the SEP 2014-15 lease).


    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    Unless you have contracts with the landlord and/or your former roommates that address this issue, the only person with any obligation to you regarding a security deposit is the landlord. However, the landlord's obligation is to all of the tenants jointly, not to any one of them (again, unless you have something in your lease to the contrary, which would be highly unusual).
    pg1067, and Mr. Knowitall, you seem to be somewhat contradicting each other with the information I've initially provided. pg1067, you mention it would be with the landlord, if anyone, and Mr. Knowitall said that from the information provided, it seems like it is more with my ex-roommates. I'm wondering with my responses to you both, what the answer of who is obligated to return (part of) my security deposit.

    Quote Quoting pg1067
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    The bottom line is that you may very well not be entitled to anything until everyone has moved out, and this is yet another good reason for roommate agreements, even though the concept is often treated like a joke.

    Thank you for your questions and the information pg1067, I appreciate the diggin! I hope some of my answers clear things up, although a lot of them reveal a highly informal lease agreement, if it can even be considered a lease agreement anymore. I hope for further answers from you, if/when you have time and if I haven't yet reached the end of your patience already. You seem knowledgeable and appropriately critical, and that is of enormous help.

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    Default Re: Delay in Return of Security Deposit With a Dispute Over Claimed Damages

    You posted a lot, but nothing I can see that would allow me to provide a more definitive analysis.

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    Default Re: Delay in Return of Security Deposit With a Dispute Over Claimed Damages

    Mr. Knowitall, do you still believe that it is still between my roommates and I?

    some pertinent information would be that I was on the lease of SEP 2014-2015 that terminated with the security deposit never paid out, but I have lived there since and the tenants that have been cycling through have been handling the passing over of the security deposits on their own completely separate of the LL.

    Another few questions:

    If the lease terminated and wasn't paid out (but left for the tenants to handle after the fact, without an official signed lease), can I work to get the original security deposit paid back from the LL?

    Is this negligent/illegal on his part in anyway, and/or can I use the fact that this wasn't paid out to get my money from the LL and subsequently have the security deposit figured out independently with the current tenants? The independent recalculating of the security deposit was actually proposed by the current tenants.

    Do the landlord-tenant laws apply for me if this it to be sorted out completely with my roommates? Is there other law the explicitly deals with this, or is this a legal gray area that should have been sorted by an internal roommate contract?

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    Default Re: Delay in Return of Security Deposit With a Dispute Over Claimed Damages

    I have not changed my opinion, that you have contributed to a loosey-goosey situation that we cannot properly analyze without more facts.

    If you can't figure things out, as previously indicated, you have the option of suing your ex-roommates and your former landlord and letting them fight it out in court about who owes what to whom.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Delay in Return of Security Deposit With a Dispute Over Claimed Damages

    I saw nothing in your follow up stuff that would make me think your former roommates have any obligation to pay anything to you. It also seems likely that the landlord's obligation to return the deposit (or any portion of it) will not arise until the tenancy has ended and possession of the premises has been turned over to the landlord. It's possible that you can work something out with your former roommates, whereby you receive what the new person paid them in exchange for you assigning your interest in the deposit held by the landlord to the new tenant.

    This should be a big learning experience for you regarding future roommate situations.

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