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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Police Shooting in Minneapolis

    L-1, nice post.


    Quote Quoting EJay
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    What bugs me is how little hesitation the officer had to unload his entire clip once he made the decision to begin shooting.
    As already pointed out by several here, as a PO, you do not take one or two shots to see what happens, then re-assess the situation to decide whether or not more shots are warranted. That is just not possible.

    I will tell you what bothers me here - is the officer is repeatedly yelling at Mr. Blevins to stop. Put your hands up. Then a pause. Then, Put your ha --, and then he started shooting. Again, with Mr. Blevins' back to him. It's almost as if he said to himself, crap, I am not going to catch this guy, so... I don't have a problem with the amount of shots, but I am still on the fence about whether they really needed to shoot him. Part of me says no, and part of me says yes. But the part of me that says no, still says, well, WTF were they supposed to do? And this coming, of course, from someone who has never been in any situation even remotely similar.

    Cheers.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Police Shooting in Minneapolis

    Quote Quoting EJay
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    Why not?
    Because it's not safe. Officers are trained to use deadly force to stop the threat. Unfortunately, that can and often does result in the threat's demise. You shoot the perp twice in the torso but he doesn't go down then he is still a threat. If they go down and are still moving with the weapon, they are still a threat. They still have a weapon that can be used on you, your partner or an innocent bystander. If the perp uses that split second of processing time to harm someone, that's not good.

    It's also pretty chaotic when you have multiple officers firing. They are all acting to stop the threat and every one of them is going to fire until that happens. Simultaneous hits by multiple officers make things seem like overkill but that is not the intent. Until someone can get a cease fire through all the racket or the officers' brains catch up to their firing instincts and they realize the perp is down/threat is over, they could keep firing.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Police Shooting in Minneapolis

    It's not a matter of unloading an entire "clip", it's a matter of firing until the threat is ended. It takes a matter of a few seconds to empty a magazine. Coupled with the time it takes to observe, react, and then respond to visual stimulus, it is not a surprise that an entire magazine might be emptied - or nearly so - before the shooting ends.

    I don't know about some of you, but most of us are not willing to risk dying on the chance that the "threat" is ended after the first two or three shots. Sorry, but if lethal force is reasonable, then it's reasonable. To say that the first 4 or 5 were good, but the remainder were not is silly. As I previously mentioned, CA is about to adopt such a Monday morning quarterbacking standard for the use of force and it will have a chilling effect on police work in my state (even more than the current legal and political environment has caused). Until this standard is adopted elsewhere, the standard is still REASONABLE. And, thus far, I have seen nothing to indicate that this shooting was other than reasonable given what was known to the officers at the time and what they were presented with.

    But, as is standard with these things, thousands will debate the merits for months and years to come, and many will come to criticize the actions the officers had to take in a blink of an eye. Maybe some of those critics should try walking in those shoes.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Police Shooting in Minneapolis

    Quote Quoting EJay
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    Why not?
    Guns are not magical items they send a .35 to .45 inch projectile that weighs around 1/3rd of an ounce out at between 800 and 1200 feet per second. They aren't like the phasers on Star Trek they don't alway or even often drop the target immediately. If deadly force is called for, you shoot until the target is no longer a threat.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Police Shooting in Minneapolis

    EJay, I like you, because your naivete makes me laugh so much.

    Quote Quoting EJay
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    My gut feeling tells me this:

    If the suspect does not have the gun raised in the air and is not holding it in a manner which it can be accurately and quickly fired and is simply fleeing in a defensive manner but nevertheless the subject is a threat, two shots with a brief pause to see his reaction would be a sufficient amount of force. If the suspect reacts in a manner which indicates he will continue to aggress, more successive shots are warranted. If the suspect appears to submit, obviously they are not.
    When one shoots a firearm at the range, they are standing stationary and shooting at a stationary paper target in silhouette. Breathing is controlled and all is calm. In this situation, the suspect is running away from the officers. There is a considerable distance between them. When one runs, the body lumbers back and forth in violent jerks. So do the arms. Adrenaline is pumping, the heart is pounding and runners are gasping for breath. Both suspect and officer were in this condition, making accuracy while shooting on the run a lot less than when shooting at the range.

    Here, the suspect was not standing still, in silhouette, but was moving back and forth and blending with the background making him hard to hit. The officer was similarly moving, panting, making it difficult to aim. With this in mind, you are not going to fire two shots and see what happens (Hey Bert, I missed. You take a couple shots and see what happens.) You are going to keep shooting until your bullets strike enough vital areas to stop the danger.

    Now, in all fairness, officers working in closer situations with a stationary suspect have sometimes been known to follow the protocol you suggest. It's often referred to as two to the body and one to the head. But, the suspect has to be awfully close and awfully still for that to work.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Police Shooting in Minneapolis

    Some years back, the standard of double and triple taps (the triple being as L-1 indicates with two to the chest and one to the head - something that came about after events like North Hollywood where suspects had body armor) has largely receded into the background as it tended to result in officer's hesitating or missing their targets altogether. Today, shooting until the threat is ended is largely the standard.

    As L-1 mentions, in a perfect world, firing two or three rounds, followed by a reassessment, would be the ideal. Sadly, few shootings are made in such ideal circumstances. They tend to involve many considerations and perceptions, adrenaline, fear, exhaustion, and/or a myriad of other physical and emotional factors that render the ideal response nearly impossible. And, yes, today we train with active movement prior to shooting in an effort to simulate "real world" situations as best as we can. But, no matter the training, the real thing will never be the same.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Police Shooting in Minneapolis

    There is something else I would like to point out.

    We have had 28 hours since the OP initiated this thread. Within that time we have painstakingly and laboriously pondered the propriety of what should have been done, from the comfort and safety of our computer chairs. We have parsed, dissected, hypothesized, ruminated and philosophized, yet intelligent minds are still in disagreement.

    OTOH, the officers on scene, chasing an armed suspect who had already fired shots prior to their arrival, were faced with a real threat. They only had seconds within which to make that same decision. You need to factor that into your judgement. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Based on the video, that's all the time you have to evaluate everything, think, decide, take action that may cost someone their life and then defend yourself to what you know will be a lynch mob seeking your blood.

    Remember, the officers are not required to take the best possible action, because the best possible action is subjective and 10 different people will have 10 different definitions as to what that might be. Instead, the officers are only required to have acted within the law and department policy, which are the instructions we, the people, have told them they must conduct themselves by.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Police Shooting in Minneapolis

    Quote Quoting L-1
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    There is something else I would like to point out.

    We have had 28 hours since the OP initiated this thread. Within that time we have painstakingly and laboriously pondered the propriety of what should have been done, from the comfort and safety of our computer chairs. We have parsed, dissected, hypothesized, ruminated and philosophized, yet intelligent minds are still in disagreement.

    OTOH, the officers on scene, chasing an armed suspect who had already fired shots prior to their arrival, were faced with a real threat. They only had seconds within which to make that same decision. You need to factor that into your judgement. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Based on the video, that's all the time you have to evaluate everything, think, decide, take action that may cost someone their life and then defend yourself to what you know will be a lynch mob seeking your blood.

    Remember, the officers are not required to take the best possible action, because the best possible action is subjective and 10 different people will have 10 different definitions as to what that might be. Instead, the officers are only required to have acted within the law and department policy, which are the instructions we, the people, have told them they must conduct themselves by.
    Amen.

    This is also the reason why we are seeing more and more officers and agencies in virtual "stand down". When you run afraid of being second-guessed to the point of termination or even prosecution, standing down becomes a matter of career survivability and not simply a measure of laziness or incompetence. Today, even if you are engaged in a "good shoot" there is a good chance that you will be penalized by your agency, or castigated and threatened to the point of being compelled to flee both the career and your home. I know of a a good many officers who have had this happen to them recently; shootings ruled to be lawful and within policy, but unable to remain in their homes due to threats against their families and their own lives. The second-guessing that is now at the forefront of the thought process can and already has resulted in injuries to officers - perhaps even deaths (but, there's no way to know for certain when an officer is killed since we cannot evaluate his mindset or thought process). The fractional delay in deciding to defend one's self cannot but have a chilling effect on survival prospects.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Police Shooting in Minneapolis

    Quote Quoting L-1
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    OTOH, the officers on scene, chasing an armed suspect who had already fired shots prior to their arrival
    .



    alleged to have already fired a shot or shots

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Police Shooting in Minneapolis

    Quote Quoting KK1968
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    [/I][/B]

    alleged to have already fired a shot or shots
    Any evaluation of reasonableness will be based upon what information the officers believed at the time of the incident. If they had been advised that he had shot at someone, they were free to rely on that information as part of the evaluation. Whether alleged or not, if they had a reasonable belief that he did so or even MAY have done so, that's certainly sufficient to add to the fact that he HAD a gun, was fleeing, and then drew the weapon after disobeying their lawful commands.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

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