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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    236

    Default Re: Do I Have to Give the HOA an Alarm Access Code

    Quote Quoting JustTrish
    View Post
    Yes, but that's not going to happen to me. Quite by coincidence, I am looking to purchase another unit in another building as an investment property and had to contact Code Compliance about which work would require permits. In my investigation of this matter, I discovered that our little city has an online searchable database of permits going back to 2012. There were only 4 permits issued in 6 years in the building that had the property I was considering buying.

    Then I searched my current building, and discovered only 6. I know for a fact that several people have redone their kitchens in the past 6 years and the permits online only list switching out electric boxes, HVAC installs, and two permits for a unit that had a small fire and smoke damage. This last one ended up with a large neon green sticker on the front door that could only be removed by the Fire Dept after repairs, so of course all the work had permits.

    It appears I might have an Ace in the hole to push back with. I just don't want to use that, unless I absolutely have to. No one likes being blackmailed, and I enjoy living here.
    As a Licensed General Contractor who has personally done dozens of full-gut kitchen remodels I would not get too caught up whether a permit was pulled. There are only two areas an inspector will look at. Circuits feeding the kitchen, GFCI's and the drainpipe/venting. You could easily hire a real contractor (not a home inspector) to tell you if it was remodeled to code. I could tell you in five minutes.

    Disclaimer: That is my practical advice, not my legal advice. However legally, my experience says you have nothing to worry about if the plumbing and electrical meet code.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Do I Have to Give the HOA an Alarm Access Code

    Quote Quoting Brian57
    View Post
    As a Licensed General Contractor who has personally done dozens of full-gut kitchen remodels I would not get too caught up whether a permit was pulled. There are only two areas an inspector will look at. Circuits feeding the kitchen, GFCI's and the drainpipe/venting. You could easily hire a real contractor (not a home inspector) to tell you if it was remodeled to code. I could tell you in five minutes.

    Disclaimer: That is my practical advice, not my legal advice. However legally, my experience says you have nothing to worry about if the plumbing and electrical meet code.
    Several units have knocked down half of a kitchen wall to open up the kitchen - the part of the wall where the refrigerator was - which would require installing an outlet over on the other side of the same wall to power the fridge. I don't know of anyone who's changed the plumbing.

    And that' really not the point. If the City requires a permit for simply switching out kitchen cabinets - without any electrical or plumbing work (I know b/c I called) - then the City isn't going to be pleased to discover it was done without a permit, and at the very least will fine them or force them to pay twice the cost of the permits.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    47.606 N 122.332 W in body, still at 90 S in my mind.
    Posts
    1,678

    Default Re: Do I Have to Give the HOA an Alarm Access Code

    And now two threads have been mixed together, Trish's permit thread and the access code.

    OP, there are practical matters here AND legal.

    It's possible that the key requirement could include an access code and, since you are choosing to be uncooperative, the HOA has numerous tools at its disposal such as withholding maintenance or emergency entry, liens (as mentioned before) and noncooperation in any other instance. Bear in mind that they can currently enter your unit and access those statements, you're just saving yourself hassle and fines from the police. solving these issues, at some levels is simple annoyance and at other levels will require, also as noted the intervention of the courts which will you to not only spend money on your own attorney but on the HOA's attorney through dues.

    Your recalcitrance will only hurt you at the end of the day. If you have the ability to create multiple access codes, which can help you track who was entering your home, I would set one up for the HOA for that very purpose and ensure that a very loud noise accompanied it.

    As to you choosing to rat out unpermitted work; your solution amounts to blackmail. Blackmail is a crime and punishable by death. Ok, not death, but still a crime punishable by fines and even jail. Be very careful how you choose to pursue your dealings with your HOA. Decide just how much headache you want. If you want complete privacy may I recommend 100 acres, an electric fence with concertina, a powered gate, and a 24-hr armed patrol. Oops...you'd have to provide an access code to the armed patrol unless they were your children and who wants to live with their children.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Do I Have to Give the HOA an Alarm Access Code

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
    View Post
    And now two three have been mixed together, Trish's permit thread and the access code.

    OP, there are practical matters here AND legal.

    It's possible that the key requirement could include an access code and, since you are choosing to be uncooperative, the HOA has numerous tools at its disposal such as withholding maintenance or emergency entry, liens (as mentioned before) and noncooperation in any other instance. Bear in mind that they can currently enter your unit and access those statements, you're just saving yourself hassle and fines from the police. solving these issues, at some levels is simple annoyance and at other levels will require, also as noted the intervention of the courts which will you to not only spend money on your own attorney but on the HOA's attorney through dues.

    Your recalcitrance will only hurt you at the end of the day. If you have the ability to create multiple access codes, which can help you track who was entering your home, I would set one up for the HOA for that very purpose and ensure that a very loud noise accompanied it.

    As to you choosing to rat out unpermitted work; your solution amounts to blackmail. Blackmail is a crime and punishable by death. Ok, not death, but still a crime punishable by fines and even jail. Be very careful how you choose to pursue your dealings with your HOA. Decide just how much headache you want. If you want complete privacy may I recommend 100 acres, an electric fence with concertina, a powered gate, and a 24-hr armed patrol. Oops...you'd have to provide an access code to the armed patrol unless they were your children and who wants to live with their children.
    Right now, unfortunately, the Declaration does not address access codes at all. It only addresses keys. The only thing I'm asking is that no one enter my home without proper notice (in non-emergency situations), which the Declaration DOES address. But they've pretty much been doing whatever they want whenever they want and going into units without reason.

    Trespassing is an offense as well. And just because someone entered my house with the key I gave the HOA, doesn't automatically mean that they are conducting legitimate HOA business. It could just be an individual acting of his own accord, trespassing on my property and invading my privacy. This is why we have Courts. If the HOA wishes to back the actions of the individual, they can tell the Court what legitimate business the individual was conducting at the time.

    If asked for money, it would be blackmail. I'm not asking for money. I can give them a code and then retaliate by ratting them out, or I can contact Code Compliance just for shits and giggles. I know all the work in my unit was done with permits, and it kinda rankles me a bit that these people - nearly all of which reside in Canada or other States - think it's okay to stiff the City/County/State, not to mention there may be unsafe electrical work performed that creates a risk my property.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Behind a Desk
    Posts
    98,846

    Default Re: Do I Have to Give the HOA an Alarm Access Code

    Quote Quoting JustTrish
    View Post
    Right now, unfortunately, the Declaration does not address access codes at all. It only addresses keys.
    The COA very obviously takes the position that "keys" includes access codes. We don't need to go over that issue again, do we? Perhaps it would be sensible for the board to expand the rule to explicitly include alarm codes, and it would certainly be within their power to do so, but your posts indicate that they believe that codes are covered by the present rule.
    Quote Quoting JustTrish
    The only thing I'm asking is that no one enter my home without proper notice (in non-emergency situations), which the Declaration DOES address. But they've pretty much been doing whatever they want whenever they want and going into units without reason.
    If you and other owners are aggrieved by the board's actions, run in the next election and replace the board.
    Quote Quoting JustTrish
    And just because someone entered my house with the key I gave the HOA, doesn't automatically mean that they are conducting legitimate HOA business.
    You are free to make whatever reports you want to the police; just don't be surprised if your "I don't know what they were actually doing" explanation for claiming criminal trespass doesn't prevent the police from charging you with filing a false police report.
    Quote Quoting JustTrish
    If asked for money, it would be blackmail. I'm not asking for money.
    People throw around the word "blackmail" as if they understand what it means when, in very many cases, they do not.

    But it's beside the point. No amount of whinging about alleged violations or unpermitted work by other residents is going to affect the board's ability to demand keys or to enforce the CC&Rs against you.

    For anybody who is interested, here's the Florida extortion (blackmail) statute:
    Quote Quoting Florida Statutes, Sec. 836.05. Threats; extortion.
    Whoever, either verbally or by a written or printed communication, maliciously threatens to accuse another of any crime or offense, or by such communication maliciously threatens an injury to the person, property or reputation of another, or maliciously threatens to expose another to disgrace, or to expose any secret affecting another, or to impute any deformity or lack of chastity to another, with intent thereby to extort money or any pecuniary advantage whatsoever, or with intent to compel the person so threatened, or any other person, to do any act or refrain from doing any act against his or her will, shall be guilty of a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    236

    Default Re: Do I Have to Give the HOA an Alarm Access Code

    Quote Quoting JustTrish
    View Post
    Several units have knocked down half of a kitchen wall to open up the kitchen - the part of the wall where the refrigerator was - which would require installing an outlet over on the other side of the same wall to power the fridge. I don't know of anyone who's changed the plumbing.

    And that' really not the point. If the City requires a permit for simply switching out kitchen cabinets - without any electrical or plumbing work (I know b/c I called) - then the City isn't going to be pleased to discover it was done without a permit, and at the very least will fine them or force them to pay twice the cost of the permits.
    If you ask a City Worker if swapping out a toilet requires a permit, they will say "yes." But who really does that?

    In CA cabinet work does not require a permit. Touching anything electrical, plumbing or structural within the wall, does. However, where upper cabinets are replaced, if you install undercabiet lighting, new energy efficiency codes must be met. Thus requiring a permit. BUT, if you just do it code, with or without a permit, it usually avoids any further interaction with the City. City Inspectors are more interested in pursuing unsafe and shoddy work. Not so much non-permitted work because it is everywhere.

    That is my practical experience. You could listen to those that will say you are risking jailtime.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    47.606 N 122.332 W in body, still at 90 S in my mind.
    Posts
    1,678

    Default Re: Do I Have to Give the HOA an Alarm Access Code

    Quote Quoting Brian57
    View Post
    If you ask a City Worker if swapping out a toilet requires a permit, they will say "yes." But who really does that?

    In CA cabinet work does not require a permit. Touching anything electrical, plumbing or structural within the wall, does. However, where upper cabinets are replaced, if you install undercabiet lighting, new energy efficiency codes must be met. Thus requiring a permit. BUT, if you just do it code, with or without a permit, it usually avoids any further interaction with the City. City Inspectors are more interested in pursuing unsafe and shoddy work. Not so much non-permitted work because it is everywhere.

    That is my practical experience. You could listen to those that will say you are risking jailtime.
    This post is completely irrelevant to this thread or any other.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    236

    Default Re: Do I Have to Give the HOA an Alarm Access Code

    My post was in response to this post by the OP:

    Quote Quoting JustTrish
    View Post
    Yes, but that's not going to happen to me. Quite by coincidence, I am looking to purchase another unit in another building as an investment property and had to contact Code Compliance about which work would require permits. In my investigation of this matter, I discovered that our little city has an online searchable database of permits going back to 2012. There were only 4 permits issued in 6 years in the building that had the property I was considering buying.

    Then I searched my current building, and discovered only 6. I know for a fact that several people have redone their kitchens in the past 6 years and the permits online only list switching out electric boxes, HVAC installs, and two permits for a unit that had a small fire and smoke damage. This last one ended up with a large neon green sticker on the front door that could only be removed by the Fire Dept after repairs, so of course all the work had permits.

    It appears I might have an Ace in the hole to push back with. I just don't want to use that, unless I absolutely have to. No one likes being blackmailed, and I enjoy living here.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Do I Have to Give the HOA an Alarm Access Code

    Doesn't pecuniary mean money or financial? As for "acts against one's will" that may apply to a person, not so much to the HOA. A person isn't asking me for the code. The HOA is. The HOA doesn't own units with non-permit work, individual people do.

    In any event, I wouldn't be so dumb as to say "if you do this, I'll do that". I might just bring up the non-permit work and see if they back down on their own.

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