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  1. #1
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    Default Maximizing Gain

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
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    The most irritating fee I've been charged, recently, was paying my attorney to discuss a billing issue. This was a bit beyond the pale.
    Of course it was because after all electrician's are the only ones with families and outside lives. If professionals started pulling all the shenanigans tradesmen do there would be rioting on the street. Imagine, going to the ER and being charged different rates because it is Friday before a holiday weekend for the exact same treatment you would get on a Monday afternoon. Really, if you don't want the extra money that comes with the extra after hours work don't answer your phone. No one is making you charge twice as much because you want to work extra and make more money...

    Quote Quoting Messenger82
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    Thanks for the advice everyone!

    Since the post our insurance company has opened and denied the claim (they are very efficient). They said the initial damage would have been less than the $1000 deductible (like $5 less) and they won't cover the subsequent damage because we did not "secure the house properly against further damage". Apparently we should have rented a bucket truck and fixed the line ourselves.
    How much in damages are we talking about? I am only asking because this sounds like a complex issue and if the monetary damage is high enough you may be better off hiring an attorney to help sort it out and maximize your gain. Just a thought.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire

    Of course it was because after all electrician's are the only ones with families and outside lives. If professionals started pulling all the shenanigans tradesmen do there would be rioting on the street. Imagine, going to the ER and being charged different rates because it is Friday before a holiday weekend for the exact same treatment you would get on a Monday afternoon. Really, if you don't want the extra money that comes with the extra after hours work don't answer your phone. No one is making you charge twice as much because you want to work extra and make more money...
    As soon as I saw your response I knew it was all about what I said. As usual you aren't reading carefully, so I'll take this slowly:

    Your antipathy towards contractors and the trades is tedious. We do not pull any more "shenanigans" than anyone else. The men and women that perform skilled labor are hard working and just as honest and scrupulous as the next person. Take that as you will.

    You example contains a number of fallacious assumptions. The largest of which is that doctors and nurses that staff an ER are there on a 24/7schedule whereas service providers, in this case electricians, operate within a typical 0700-1700 m-f and no holidays schedule. Requesting service outside of those typical hours will often have premium charges attached to them. Going back to the ER, you pay additional fees for availing yourself to ER services as well.

    Your last statement is pure poppycock! Of course I'll answer my phone and I'll be happy to provide my service at the stated emergency rate. If they don't want it they are welcome to decline and find someone else. Your unwillingness to grasp that concept says more about you than my laying out terms up front does about me.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire

    Quote Quoting ebayuser
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    Of course it was because after all electrician's are the only ones with families and outside lives. If professionals started pulling all the shenanigans tradesmen do there would be rioting on the street. Imagine, going to the ER and being charged different rates because it is Friday before a holiday weekend for the exact same treatment you would get on a Monday afternoon. Really, if you don't want the extra money that comes with the extra after hours work don't answer your phone. No one is making you charge twice as much because you want to work extra and make more money...



    How much in damages are we talking about? I am only asking because this sounds like a complex issue and if the monetary damage is high enough you may be better off hiring an attorney to help sort it out and maximize your gain. Just a thought.
    Maximize his gain? Sorry dude but there is no gain to be had. He is due his damages, provable damages.


    As to the crap about electricians overcharging;

    ya, what mark47 said.

    Im curious; when was the last time your doctor came to your house to treat you at 10pm? When is the last time your accountant showed up at your house at 10pm, and of course only charged regular hourly rate?

    im betting the answer would be never. Think about that while rereading your glowing praise of professionals compared to electricians.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire

    Quote Quoting jk
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    Maximize his gain? Sorry dude but there is no gain to be had. He is due his damages, provable damages.
    Maximize his gain as in not screwing up his claim for damages so he ends up with nothing. He could end up chasing his tail in small claims and show nothing for it.


    Quote Quoting jk
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    As to the crap about electricians overcharging;

    Im curious; when was the last time your doctor came to your house to treat you at 10pm? When is the last time your accountant showed up at your house at 10pm, and of course only charged regular hourly rate?

    im betting the answer would be never. Think about that while rereading your glowing praise of professionals compared to electricians.
    When was the last time you offered to pay your doctor two to three times his asking price and he refused to come see you. Note: I said asking price not whatever BS rate insurance has negotiated for you, or medicare pays, or what not. I.E. when you get your statement from your insurance and it says charged: $xxxx amount not the allowable: $5. I know lots of doctors who would be willing, for 2x-3x their asking prices upfront in cash, to work in concierge settings. Look it up.

    No your doctor is not coming to your house for a $5 copay at 10 pm. But you know what - if you go to the hospital your doctor will see you at 2 am and operate on you emergently for the same $5 copay that he would have gotten paid if you showed up for surgery at 9 am on Wednesday morning. When was he last time your electrician did that?

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
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    You example contains a number of fallacious assumptions. The largest of which is that doctors and nurses that staff an ER are there on a 24/7schedule whereas service providers, in this case electricians, operate within a typical 0700-1700 m-f and no holidays schedule. Requesting service outside of those typical hours will often have premium charges attached to them. Going back to the ER, you pay additional fees for availing yourself to ER services as well.
    The only fallacy is on your part: electricians can easily work shifts. Most doctor's don't work shifts - they are on call very similar to the situation of the electrician answering calls after hours. When you go to the ER with a stomach ache and end up having surgery that surgeon and anesthesiologist are not working a shift - they are coming in emergently to take care of you. Yet they get paid the same rate as if you had a scheduled surgery at 9 am.

    And you really need to learn to read: I said it doesn't matter if you go to the ER on Monday afternoon or go to the ER on a Friday night before a holiday weekend. As long as you got the same care you pay the same bill. There is no upcharge because it is Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.

    Quote Quoting Mark47n
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    Your last statement is pure poppycock! Of course I'll answer my phone and I'll be happy to provide my service at the stated emergency rate. If they don't want it they are welcome to decline and find someone else. Your unwillingness to grasp that concept says more about you than my laying out terms up front does about me.
    No what it says is you want the money, you are gauging and yet you have the audacity to whine about how its after hours. At least be a man and don't whine about it being Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire

    Quote Quoting ebayuser
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    Maximize his gain as in not screwing up his claim for damages so he ends up with nothing. He could end up chasing his tail in small claims and show nothing for it.




    When was the last time you offered to pay your doctor two to three times his asking price and he refused to come see you. Note: I said asking price not whatever BS rate insurance has negotiated for you, or medicare pays, or what not. I.E. when you get your statement from your insurance and it says charged: $xxxx amount not the allowable: $5. I know lots of doctors who would be willing, for 2x-3x their asking prices upfront in cash, to work in concierge settings. Look it up.

    No your doctor is not coming to your house for a $5 copay at 10 pm. But you know what - if you go to the hospital your doctor will see you at 2 am and operate on you emergently for the same $5 copay that he would have gotten paid if you showed up for surgery at 9 am on Wednesday morning. When was he last time your electrician did that?



    The only fallacy is on your part: electricians can easily work shifts. Most doctor's don't work shifts - they are on call very similar to the situation of the electrician answering calls after hours. When you go to the ER with a stomach ache and end up having surgery that surgeon and anesthesiologist are not working a shift - they are coming in emergently to take care of you. Yet they get paid the same rate as if you had a scheduled surgery at 9 am.

    And you really need to learn to read: I said it doesn't matter if you go to the ER on Monday afternoon or go to the ER on a Friday night before a holiday weekend. As long as you got the same care you pay the same bill. There is no upcharge because it is Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.



    No what it says is you want the money, you are gauging and yet you have the audacity to whine about how its after hours. At least be a man and don't whine about it being Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.
    who said anything about copays?

    i asked a simple question and you want to frustrate the conversation by bringing up superfluous issues.

    Did you realize that while you said an electrician was gouging a customer for charging a premium rate, you seemed to be quite comfortable with a doctor charging 2X-3x his normal rate to make a house call. Quite hypocritical.


    And again; gain is different than being compensated for losses/damages.


    Speaking of doctors that are contracted coming in at odd hours for their “normal rate” is different than a doctor not on a contract coming in at odd hours.

    And again you are trying to compare an entity that holds themselves out as offering 24 hour/ day services (the hospital) with an electrician that has somewhat regular business hours.

    Btw: the last time I needed emergency services the doctor who ended up doing the operation to fix a broken bone did not come in early. He took the phone call, reviewed the x Ray (it can be sent via the Internet) and said: give pain relief meds and i’ll be in at 8:00 am to do the surgery. This was at about 1:00 am.

    So no, doctors don’t always show up. There is no need to usually as the Er doctors, you know, the docs hired to work the night shift, triage and stabilize those patients that can wait for daytime specialists. Specialists are called in for services in the middle of the night a lot less than you think they are.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire

    Quote Quoting ebayuser
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    Maximize his gain as in not screwing up his claim for damages so he ends up with nothing. He could end up chasing his tail in small claims and show nothing for it.

    When was the last time you offered to pay your doctor two to three times his asking price and he refused to come see you. Note: I said asking price not whatever BS rate insurance has negotiated for you, or medicare pays, or what not. I.E. when you get your statement from your insurance and it says charged: $xxxx amount not the allowable: $5. I know lots of doctors who would be willing, for 2x-3x their asking prices upfront in cash, to work in concierge settings. Look it up.

    No your doctor is not coming to your house for a $5 copay at 10 pm. But you know what - if you go to the hospital your doctor will see you at 2 am and operate on you emergently for the same $5 copay that he would have gotten paid if you showed up for surgery at 9 am on Wednesday morning. When was he last time your electrician did that?

    The only fallacy is on your part: electricians can easily work shifts. Most doctor's don't work shifts - they are on call very similar to the situation of the electrician answering calls after hours. When you go to the ER with a stomach ache and end up having surgery that surgeon and anesthesiologist are not working a shift - they are coming in emergently to take care of you. Yet they get paid the same rate as if you had a scheduled surgery at 9 am.

    And you really need to learn to read: I said it doesn't matter if you go to the ER on Monday afternoon or go to the ER on a Friday night before a holiday weekend. As long as you got the same care you pay the same bill. There is no upcharge because it is Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.

    No what it says is you want the money, you are gauging and yet you have the audacity to whine about how its after hours. At least be a man and don't whine about it being Friday afternoon before a holiday weekend.
    The reason you don't like what contractors charge is because YOU have to actually pay them, unlike a doctor when you whip out your (near free, employer provided) medical ATM card.

    Try paying your doctor or ER cash next time and see how you like their rates.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire

    Quote Quoting jk
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    Did you realize that while you said an electrician was gouging a customer for charging a premium rate, you seemed to be quite comfortable with a doctor charging 2X-3x his normal rate to make a house call. Quite hypocritical.
    I am not. My whole point was if a professional did the same thing there would be all sorts of noise made. I even pointed out in a round about way that when doctors do it society calls it "concierge medicine" not medical care. I.e. we as a society do not tolerate this from professionals however it is considered okay when tradesman do it.

    Quote Quoting jk
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    Speaking of doctors that are contracted coming in at odd hours for their “normal rate” is different than a doctor not on a contract coming in at odd hours.
    Again most doctors are not contracted to come in. Even for the ones that are and are compensated differently you as the customer do NOT pay for the difference. I have no problem if an electrician company wants to compensate their employees differently for different types of call as long as the customer pays the same price.

    Quote Quoting jk
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    And again you are trying to compare an entity that holds themselves out as offering 24 hour/ day services (the hospital) with an electrician that has somewhat regular business hours.
    No I am holding electricians comparable to individual doctors. The hospital may be open 24 hours a day. Doctors are human and need somewhat regular hours.

    Quote Quoting jk
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    Btw: the last time I needed emergency services the doctor who ended up doing the operation to fix a broken bone did not come in early. He took the phone call, reviewed the x Ray (it can be sent via the Internet) and said: give pain relief meds and i’ll be in at 8:00 am to do the surgery. This was at about 1:00 am.
    Then by definition you did NOT need emergency services. You visited an Emergency room and got immediate care from te ER doctor but the rest of it (i.e. the definitive treatment) was not an emergency.

    Quote Quoting jk
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    So no, doctors don’t always show up. There is no need to usually as the Er doctors, you know, the docs hired to work the night shift, triage and stabilize those patients that can wait for daytime specialists. Specialists are called in for services in the middle of the night a lot less than you think they are.
    Trust me they are called in way more then you think. And it is not just being called in - the fact that someone called them, woke the up in the middle of the night, they reviewed the studies, and made a plan still constitutes them taking care of you (usually uncompensated until they see you in the morning and do a proper work up). And again addressing your jab on the ER doctor he is not charging you, the patient, more because you showed up in the middle of the night. The bill would have been the same if you showed up the next morning at 8 am.

    Quote Quoting Brian57
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    The reason you don't like what contractors charge is because YOU have to actually pay them, unlike a doctor when you whip out your (near free, employer provided) medical ATM card.

    Try paying your doctor or ER cash next time and see how you like their rates.
    I agree with the first part of your statement. Most people have no clue how little they pay for doctors or how entitled they act (the patients).

    However, if the doctors charged you like your electrician does imagine the outrage, as you have clearly demonstrated. I am not sure why people find it ok and normal to pay their electrician 3x normal rates for after hour work but paying their doctor is wrong and health care should be a "right".

    As for the second part well at least its the same rate on Friday night before a holiday weekend as 9 am on Wed unlike the electrician .

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire

    Quote Quoting ebayuser
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    I agree with the first part of your statement. Most people have no clue how little they pay for doctors or how entitled they act (the patients).

    However, if the doctors charged you like your electrician does imagine the outrage, as you have clearly demonstrated. I am not sure why people find it ok and normal to pay their electrician 3x normal rates for after hour work but paying their doctor is wrong and health care should be a "right".

    As for the second part well at least its the same rate on Friday night before a holiday weekend as 9 am on Wed unlike the electrician .
    I just had hand surgery and observed the rate between the surgical center and my doctor being $5,000/hr which I paid cash for because my surgeon did not accept my insurance. Those are rates that not even the best lawyer in the country would charge. Oh, and my surgeon does about 5-8 of those surgeries per day twice a week.

    What did you ask the electrician to do at 10:00pm, and, how did you estimate that he was charging three times his rate?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire

    Quote Quoting Brian57
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    I just had hand surgery and observed the rate between the surgical center and my doctor being $5,000/hr which I paid cash for because my surgeon did not accept my insurance. Those are rates that not even the best lawyer in the country would charge. Oh, and my surgeon does about 5-8 of those surgeries per day twice a week.
    Please don't try ridiculous number games. What did your surgeon charge you? Or your anesthesiologist? Those are the doctor's rates. Most of the $5000/hr (which seems real high specially for a cash patient) went to the surgery center (i.e. facilities, equipment, drugs, x-ray, labs, etc.).

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Liability Trivia - Truck Driver Collides with Dangerously Low Hanging Wire

    Quote Quoting ebayuser
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    Please don't try ridiculous number games. What did your surgeon charge you? Or your anesthesiologist? Those are the doctor's rates. Most of the $5000/hr (which seems real high specially for a cash patient) went to the surgery center (i.e. facilities, equipment, drugs, x-ray, labs, etc.).
    I'd be happy to tell you. The surgeon, who is at the top of his game as hand surgeons in the area, charged me $2,250 with a local or an additional $625 for a general. The surgical center charged $2,350. The surgery took about 50 minutes. I am certain a high paying platinum plan would be 'contracted' to pay nearly double that. He did at least 5 surgeries before mine and was out the door at 1:00pm. All surgeries paying more than my cash job.

    No x-rays, no labs, no splint. Just numbing agent, knife, scissors, thread, needle, facility and nurses. Actually, I had no problem with the price, but I do with the entire healthcare system. Being gouged every month for insurance and then not being able to use it in a time of need after being butchered by an in-network doctor.

    So, what did the electrician do and what did he charge? I am familiar with scopes of work and pricing.

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