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  1. #1

    Default Terminated for Time Fraud

    My question involves labor and employment law for the state of: Colorado

    I was terminated because I manually clocked in on the computer 6 times, however my badge into the building shows I entered 60 seconds prior to my manual clock in- 3 of the computer clockins were done per my Supervisor's request. I've got an upcoming hearing for unemployment, I was employee of the year, received multiple accolades from coworkers etc...not under any disciplinary action at the time and was terminated over the phone. Is there any way to successfully win my unemployment?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    38,867

    Default Re: Terminated for Time Fraud

    Can you explain where the time fraud comes in? If your badge shows you were in the building prior to being clocked in, unless there is more to the story I’m not seeing time fraud.

    for future reference;

    it takes only one “oh sh!!” To wipe out all earned attaboys. The accolades you list mean nothing if there is validity to the charge

  3. #3

    Default Re: Terminated for Time Fraud

    The claim is that it would take more than 60 seconds to reach my work station..

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    38,867

    Default Re: Terminated for Time Fraud

    Quote Quoting Mastiffpup1@gmail.com
    View Post
    The claim is that it would take more than 60 seconds to reach my work station..
    not if you're the Flash!!!!

    How long does it take to get to your work station?

    Have you spoken with the supervisor you mentioned?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
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    1,142

    Default Re: Terminated for Time Fraud

    So you were terminated for EXACTLY WHAT? In other words, what does your initial unemployment decision say? Or if you have not received the initial decision denying benefits, if this is a fact finding hearing before an initial decision, what exactly did the employer say to you when they were terminating you? That would give a better idea of how to defend the claim that you did not clock in fraudulently...or exactly whatever they say you did. It's not quite clear to me at the present.

    Let's see, you were clocking in early? or changing the clock-in time? It says you "manually clocked in on the computer." What exactly is this? Your supervisor told you to do it three of the six times it was done, is that correct? The other three you did without your supervisor's request and knowledge, right? Okay, was this against the rules? Did you know it was? Had you EVER received any warnings for doing this? What is the company's policy on this? Did you know this was or was not a rule? Did you sign anything or have any instructions given to you that told you that doing what you did could be grounds for instant termination?

    You had a lot of kudos and good performance reviews, it is true, and that is a good thing,but you were not fired for poor performance you were terminated for something related to your misuse of the clock in system. Keep everything related to the specific reason that you were terminated, except you'll want to be sure and mention that you were an excellent employee who always did your job to the best of your ability and did not think that this behavior would lead to your losing your job.

    That you had no performance issues related to this issue would be the only real valid thing here. In order to fire you for something without progressive discipline (without giving you a series of warnings, so that you KNEW that if you did this again, you'd be fired) the employer must demonstrate that what you did was gross misconduct, which means it was something so wrong that any reasonable person would've known it was wrong to do it. Clocking in so that you gave yourself extra paid time is of course, theft of time, pretty likely to be considered something you should reasonably have known better than to do, even one time. Changing the clock so it showed you coming in earlier, or later, but right on time...well, er, exactly why did you manually clock in six times? If it was to deliberately deceive the system into paying you more, or to be hiding the fact that you were tardy, or something like that, you're probably not going to be able to manipulate that set of facts into anything positive for you. But tell us and let us see if we can find any way to address the facts of your case in a helpful.

    That you were fired over the phone may or may not be relevant. Were you at home on suspension? Did they just call you up without any prior indication there was a problem and terminate you on the phone? What were the circumstances?

    Remember to make your weekly certifications for benefits each time the week passes until you have a decision.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Terminated for Time Fraud

    Manually clocking means logging onto the computer vs swiping my badge at the time clock~ per my supervisor the average for each employee to do this is 2-3 times per month...I had been verbally admonished 3 yrs prior for tardiness. 6 times in a month period I clocked in on the computer, when I check my hours the last day of the pay period I always check to make sure I had the correct amount of hours, if time was incorrect it was because of a failed clock...
    Our attendance policy allowed for 6 absences or 12 tardies per year...in addition I had worked bonus shift that allowed 2 additional absences/4 tardies...
    I had not received any commentary, verbal or otherwise regarding any attendance issue, I was under the allotted amount.
    I was emailed on 3/25 by my supervisor that I was missing 3 clockins and to fix them- I did so
    On 3/28 he asked me into his office (only 2nd convo w him) and asked if I purposefully clocked in on the computer to lie about my time- I responded no...asked if I was in trouble and he said no, just a conversation
    Later he came to my desk and told me if I wanted I could work 2 hours of overtime every week to help with a project.
    The following week- 2 hours before my shift - HR and the Directing Mgr called and terminated me over the phone...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
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    1,142

    Default Re: Terminated for Time Fraud

    Quote Quoting Mastiffpup1@gmail.com
    View Post
    Manually clocking means logging onto the computer vs swiping my badge at the time clock~ per my supervisor the average for each employee to do this is 2-3 times per month...I had been verbally admonished 3 yrs prior for tardiness. 6 times in a month period I clocked in on the computer, when I check my hours the last day of the pay period I always check to make sure I had the correct amount of hours, if time was incorrect it was because of a failed clock...
    Our attendance policy allowed for 6 absences or 12 tardies per year...in addition I had worked bonus shift that allowed 2 additional absences/4 tardies...
    I had not received any commentary, verbal or otherwise regarding any attendance issue, I was under the allotted amount.
    I was emailed on 3/25 by my supervisor that I was missing 3 clockins and to fix them- I did so
    On 3/28 he asked me into his office (only 2nd convo w him) and asked if I purposefully clocked in on the computer to lie about my time- I responded no...asked if I was in trouble and he said no, just a conversation
    Later he came to my desk and told me if I wanted I could work 2 hours of overtime every week to help with a project.
    The following week- 2 hours before my shift - HR and the Directing Mgr called and terminated me over the phone...
    Wow, you've done your whole valid presentation here, pretty much. This covers most of what you need to say in the hearing, tell the adjudicator. Remember, they're not going to understand anything more about this process at your job than we do here. Make them understand that what you're being accused of is not what you actually did.

    The point is, you did NOT steal time. This clocking in on the computer was a common practice among your co-workers and yourself. You were instructed to do so by your supervisor very shortly before your termination. You had not been formally warned in any way about continuing to do this clocking in thing, but rather had been told this was not a warning, just a conversation. You had no reason to expect that you were about to be terminated for your action, you had not done anything wrong or anything that could reasonably have been considered misconduct.

    And then there's this situation of where your supervisor, after your conversation, offered you more overtime hours, gave you no indication that your job was in jeopardy in any way. And then...out of the blue, one week later, you're called up and fired over the telephone with absolutely no indication that this was about to happen. This is drifting over into something known as "condoning" in other words, if you were such a horrible employee, who'd been stealing time and falsifying his time records, why'd they work you more, and let you hang around supposedly to steal from them, for another whole week?

    Leave off the bolded part here. You don't need to mention anything about write ups or discipline that happened this long ago and is not directly related to the issue for which you were fired. Things which didn't happen within a reasonable time period before your termination do not give you a reasonable expectation that you're about to be terminated, and do not work as a warning for when they did actually terminate you. And in that case, you had no warnings.

    Incidentally, what you say about ("only 2nd convo") is confusing. The second time you'd ever talked to this supervisor about this issue, including the email, or was there a warning or conversation about it another time?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,179

    Default Re: Terminated for Time Fraud

    so three of the six were actually missing clock-ins where you later guessed at what time you had arrived? why did the manager not input them to correct them? Were you truly there at that time? How long does it take to get from the door to your desk walking normally? (Note that they probably have the data to compare the two and can see how long it normally takes you so something out of the ordinary fast can raise red flags)

    why did you manually clock in the other 3 times rather than use the badge swipe?

    what is the written policy about how to clock in? and reasons why you can use the computer to edit rather than badge swipe? (Badge swipes do a better job at protecting employers from employees who ask others to clock in for them)

    I have to wonder if they don't have more backup evidence that you were not at your desk at the time that you put on the clock in? If you estimated incorrectly because say you were late and didn't swipe in but then forgot and fixed it as if you were there on time, it could be an issue if they have the data to back it up. If there were tardies allowed and you took the tardy but put that you came in on time, that could be an issue.

    Whether you will win at unemployment might depend on what they have.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
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    1,142

    Default Re: Terminated for Time Fraud

    It surely will, and it's never a sure thing, can go any way, but from the sound of this, it hasn't been terribly well handled up by the company's HR up to this point. All he can do is go on and see. Listen and answer carefully if the employer comes in with a lot of paperwork and the hearing officer has questions for you.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Terminated for Time Fraud

    It was only my 2nd time meeting him, at the time of my termination he'd been with the company for about 3.5 -4 weeks...he wasnt with the company when I'd received the verbal 3yrs prior..
    I'd have been willing to take a tardy if it had been offered, I genuinely thought I was in the bldg at the appropriate time.. it is not against company policy to use the computer but it is frowned on to do so excessively..
    Its extremely upsetting because I work in the medical field and I guarantee I've donated tons of time in favor of patient care so being accused of fraud for 60-120 seconds is ridiculous...

    As to the corrected clockins per my managers request, good question..I didn't think to question just did as asked...

    I only checked my timecard right before payroll submission to make sure my total hours were correct and make any changes..ie if I had missed clicking or missed clicking out etc..

    These specific 6 clockins were fixed post the actual day that they happened on so I assigned the start time of shift...this was not all on the same pay period...

    If I were tardy...the 60-120 seconds they are claiming I would have taken the tardy and disciplinary action- but that was never even brought up...

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