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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2018
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    Ohio
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    Default When Must a Driver Be Warned of a Reduction in the Speed Limit

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: Ohio for violating a local speed code/ordinance.

    Does "Reduced Speed Limit Ahead" sign have to be used on a county road entering a municipality when speed is dropping? 55mph to 25mph? I contacted numerous officials in the county (ODOT, County Engineer, Township Trustees, Road Maintenance Crew/Department, and the County Garage) and no one can tell me the rules/regulations on this sign. I kept getting the answer of "I don't know."

    When trying to get clarification about who's jurisdiction (outside municipality) a specific part of this road is in I got various answers. Engineer said township, Trustee said it isn't township it is city, and Chief of police said it depends on which side of the road you are on. How do I find out who has responsibility for this section of road?

    I've read a lot about how it is pointless to argue about the radar, calibration, and such. I'd still like to ask some questions and know if they'd be worth bringing up after reading the user manual.

    1. Does an officer have to be certified to use radar?

    2. Does there have to be a paper record (or some proof) that the unit was calibrated?

    3. Radar specifications for this model state that the Target Distance is 1 mile. Officer doesn't give a specific point for his location other than "coming around the curve" and "just west" of a certain road. This definition leaves a lot of room on what the distance might be which very well could be over the mile. Does it matter?

    4. Moving radar was used. Manual states "In opposite direction mode, care should be taken by the operator to recognize that the violator is traveling at a higher rate of speed than the norm; that the vehicle is out front, by itself, and nearest the radar; that proper identification of the violating vehicle is made; and at the time of speed
    determination the patrol vehicle's speed indication on the radar is the same as the reading on the speedometer. If these steps are taken, and the radar was properly checked for calibration beforehand, the officer knows the radar was operating properly and that the radar made a true and accurate determination of the vehicle's speed." Worth questioning the officer about any of this? There was light traffic in the area.

    5. Manual states "Fastest Mode Historically, traffic radar has displayed the strongest target. Case law has centered on the ability of the radar operator to confidently identify what vehicle is associated with that indication. It was relatively simple for analog radars to process this method. Modern DSP radar such as the BEE III can process many targets at the same time, but there is no practical way to display multiple targets and associate them with the correct vehicles. Fastest mode gives the operator an opportunity to view one other target besides the strongest. In this mode, the BEE III considers all possible targets (there may be several in range of the radar) and
    displays the fastest one. Doppler audio is also provided for this target. While the speeds indicated in the fastest mode are as accurate as normal targets, visual identification of the offending vehicle is more difficult. For this reason, the BEE III only displays fastest targets on request from a momentary switch and does not allow them to be locked. It is intended to be used as a way to gather additional information about a specific situation." If this method was used, can an argument be made that because the officer was coming around the curve and there was light traffic, he didn't ticket the right driver?

    6. Should what tuning forks were used be asked since the department uses 2 different radars?

    7. Manual states "Harmonic detection In moving mode, the BEE III receives a large reflection from the road, which is used to compute the patrol speed. Some situations, such as when guardrails or large signs are present, cause the signal to be excessively large. This can sometimes cause a harmonic frequency of twice the patrol
    speed to appear. These signals would normally be displayed as a target with a speed equal to the patrol speed and prevent the BEE III from reading the speed of real targets, but harmonic detection circuitry inside the BEE III inhibits this. Unfortunately, the harmonic detection circuitry also may reduce the range of actual target vehicles that are moving at the same speed as the patrol vehicle. This is normal and can be avoided by patrolling at a different speed than the offending targets."Guardrails are present on the curve. Any valid argument that can be raised that speed may have been inaccurate?

    8. Manual"Range and radar placement The range of the radar is influenced by how it is mounted in the vehicle. Heater fans are moving targets and will be picked up if energy from the antenna is reflected toward the fan. The best solution to this problem is to find a location that minimizes this effect. To determine this location, place the unit in stationary mode, turn the volume up, and open the squelch. This lets any target or interference be heard. If changing fan speeds changes the audio signal, the fan is being picked up in that mounting position; try to find a different location. Reducing the fan speed may also reduce the problem. Reducing the range setting of the radar will also reduce the problem. If you have persistent problems with the BEE III reading the fan speed, call the factory for suggestions specific to your particular vehicle." Worth it to question location?

    9. Unit uses a "POP" feature. Study reports online state that the POP feature is not reliable and flawed (and detailed info in the studies). Manual "A note of caution Information derived during the POP burst is non-evidential and to be used as advisory information only, in much that same manner as fastest mode is. Citations should not be issued based solely on information derived from the POP burst since there is no tracking history developed. If the speed is a violation, the radar must be allowed to enter the continuous transmit mode (by pressing the corresponding antenna button again while the POP speed is still being displayed) so that the tracking history may be developed. There is no case law allowing traffic radar citations to be issued without a tracking history, and MPH will not assist in the prosecution of citations issued without a proper tracking history." Is this information that should be released to me if requested?

    Thank you for taking the time to read/respond to this.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
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    1,131

    Default Re: Radar and Traffic Signs

    Quote Quoting LoveToLearn
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    How do I find out who has responsibility for this section of road?
    What difference does it make? There's no requirement that a "reduced speed ahead" sign be posted. I guess you didn't like the answer you received in the other forum.

    If you are going to nitpick the radar then my personal feeling is that you're in over your head and an attorney is your best bet.

    Radar is used to merely confirm an independent speed estimation made by the officer. I don't know the case law in Ohio, but in many states a conviction can be obtained just by visual estimation of speed.

  3. #3
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    Sep 2005
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    Default Re: When Must a Driver Be Warned of a Reduction in the Speed Limit

    Quote Quoting LoveToLearn
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    Does "Reduced Speed Limit Ahead" sign have to be used on a county road entering a municipality when speed is dropping? 55mph to 25mph?
    Ohio's MUTCD expresses that notices of speed reduction should be used in rural areas where advanced notice is needed to comply with the speed limit ahead. See Sec. 2I-9. The big question is whether advance notice is in fact needed. The new speed limit sign instructs you of the speed limit once you reach the sign, so in most cases the new sign is going to be adequate -- you see the sign ahead, you slow before you reach it, and you proceed at the new speed limit. Also, the context may give you notice -- if you're entering a downtown or residential area, you know that the speed limit is going to drop well below 55 MPH.

    A drop from 55 MPH to 25 MPH is a big drop, but does not of itself mean that the state should provide a special warning sign to warn you of that speed limit reduction.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
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    193

    Default Re: When Must a Driver Be Warned of a Reduction in the Speed Limit

    Can you post a google maps link to exactly where this occurred?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Ohio
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    5

    Default Re: Radar and Traffic Signs

    Quote Quoting joef
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    Can you post a google maps link to exactly where this occurred?
    Here is a link: http://engineer.co.morrow.oh.us/zoomify.aspx

    You will have to scroll down to the Cardington town map. The area in question is near Maxwell park (right lower of map). Area in question is Kenny Lane to slightly past Riverview Dr.

    This is more detailed map of the area: http://morrowcountyohio.gov/gis/

    Quote Quoting Highwayman
    View Post
    What difference does it make? There's no requirement that a "reduced speed ahead" sign be posted.
    As for what difference it makes, I wanted to approach whomever is in charge to ask them to take a look at that area about placing a sign, especially since the officer said that they issue a lot of tickets there. I wasn't nitpicking about anything, just curious about the ins and outs on those matters I questioned.

    Quote Quoting EJay
    View Post
    If the prosecution wishes to admit evidence obtained by the radar unit, yes he does. (State v. Riddle, 2011 Ohio)
    If the prosecution wishes to admit evidence obtained by the radar unit, yes.
    "In order for a person to be convicted of speeding, evidence must be introduced that the device is in good condition for accurate readings and that the officer is qualified to administer the radar device. State v. Wilcox (1974), 40 Ohio App.2d 380, 384"
    Yes if the officer does not operate the radar unit correctly, the evidence should not be admitted. It's up to you, or your attorney, to prove this.
    Yes. If the officer was not operating the radar unit correctly, and the defense proves this, the court may find that the evidence to be inadmissible.
    A better argument would be if there were other vehicles, traveling faster, near and around you. The radar could have picked them up instead. I'm not sure what coming around the bend has to do with him using the "fastest" setting.
    I can help you with some more of your questions later if you still have them but it seems to me that you wish to acquire more info about technical arguments one could make in opposition to radar evidence.

    Even though this case was affirmed, I would start with this one. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...en&as_sdt=4,36 There's a ton of relevant info in there.
    Also, check out google scholar, set it to case law in Ohio.
    Thank you for your reply and suggestion!

    I appreciate everyone that responded. You sure did educate me!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    19,901

    Default Re: When Must a Driver Be Warned of a Reduction in the Speed Limit

    Again, "should" is not obligatory. "Shall" is obligatory.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Ohio
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    Default Re: When Must a Driver Be Warned of a Reduction in the Speed Limit

    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    Again, "should" is not obligatory. "Shall" is obligatory.
    Thanks for the clarification. That leaves me wondering then why some signs are even mentioned in the Traffic Book. LOL You all sure educated this old dog and helped me learn something new.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
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    326

    Default Re: When Must a Driver Be Warned of a Reduction in the Speed Limit

    If you were cited shortly after the 25mph limit sign, and especially if you can testify you were in the process of slowing down, it's worth a shot to argue a reduction in speed sign is warranted, as even Ohio MUCTD agrees. Note and quote in your argument the reference to 2I-9 posted by Mr. Knowitall above. 55 to 25 is a big drop and the judge may be more understanding than some of the folks here.

  9. #9
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    May 2018
    Location
    Ohio
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    Default Re: When Must a Driver Be Warned of a Reduction in the Speed Limit

    Quote Quoting EJay
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    Section 2c-5 and table 2c-4 outline how far in advance warning signs should be placed. For a 30mph decrease in speed from 55 mph to 25mph the table recommends advance placement of 175 -225ft.
    I don't understand how to read the table to figure out recommended placement. Would you walk me through it?

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    Ohio's MUTCD expresses that notices of speed reduction should be used in rural areas where advanced notice is needed to comply with the speed limit ahead. See Sec. 2I-9. The big question is whether advance notice is in fact needed. The new speed limit sign instructs you of the speed limit once you reach the sign, so in most cases the new sign is going to be adequate -- you see the sign ahead, you slow before you reach it, and you proceed at the new speed limit. Also, the context may give you notice -- if you're entering a downtown or residential area, you know that the speed limit is going to drop well below 55 MPH.

    A drop from 55 MPH to 25 MPH is a big drop, but does not of itself mean that the state should provide a special warning sign to warn you of that speed limit reduction.
    I think your link is to an old print. The "Reduce Speed Ahead" sign is now a warning sign and not a regulatory sign. Reduce speed signs are now considered a W3-5 or W3-5a sign. That is if I'm reading the current manuals right.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: When Must a Driver Be Warned of a Reduction in the Speed Limit

    Quote Quoting EJay
    View Post
    This never ends. No one contends the recommendations of the OMUTCD, in this case, are obligatory.
    To the contrary, we have to deal with people making that type of claim on a continuing basis.

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