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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Default Re: Help

    AdjusterJack spent most of his life in the insurance industry so he know FAR more than you on the topic and probably more than that attorney. That's a lot of hard experience. Yours is far more limited. I'll take his word over yours on insurance matters 6 days a week and twice on Sundays.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Behind a Desk
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    98,846

    Default Re: Help

    Quote Quoting budwad
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    When someone holds themselves out as a professional such as a painter, a contractor, a plumber, etc. and is hired by a HO, that does not create an employee-employer relationship. That creates a contractual relationship.
    An employment relationship is a contractual relationship.

    If you hire somebody to perform work for which a license is required, California has created a statutory presumption that the person is your employee. (Labor Code, Sec. 2750.5). Thus, even in the absence of the homeowner's negligence as a cause of injury, a homeowner is potentially liable to an unlicensed worker under workers' compensation law. See, e.g., Mendoza v. Brodeur 142 Cal.App.4th 72, 79 [47 Cal.Rptr.3d 310 (2006). Workers comp laws tend to have a number of provisions that can place a worker inside or outside of workers comp coverage based upon such factors as control of the workplace, hours worked, and the like, so the determination of whether or not the homeowner had a duty to carry workers comp insurance may require considerable analysis of the facts and governing statutes.
    Quote Quoting budwad
    This thread does not specify a state but in general a licensed contractor (or painter) is required to carry liability insurance ... [and] show proof of workman's comp coverage....
    But (a) sometimes homeowners intentionally hire people who are not licensed contractors to perform work on their homes, (b) not all injuries to workers that occur on a homeowner's property are work-related, and (c) whatever the law may require, some contractors don't carry insurance or allow their policies to lapse.
    Quote Quoting budwad
    A sole-proprietor working alone has the option to carry workman's comp or not. If they choose not to carry comp, they will be (not the homeowner) the responsible party for injury.
    That's going to depend on the cause of the injury. Falling off an improperly secured ladder is one thing; a dog bite is another.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    16,474

    Default Re: Help

    Quote Quoting Brian57
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    Well, you guys ought to do a little research on HO policies before trying to sound like authorities on it. I know for a fact that your HO policy will cover the medical bills of a person that was accidentally shot by a gun that was stored in a house. I know that your HO policy will cover a pedestrian or car that you hit on your bicycle that was stored in your house. I know that it will cover your neighbor that fell down your stairs. But it will not cover an unlicensed contractor who hurt himself on your property because it is specifically excepted from coverage. And you don't have to worry about a licensed contractor suing you for his injuries because, at least in CA, he cannot sue the HO for his injuries.

    HO policies cover a lot, but how would you know unless you found yourself in one of those situations and knew to file the claim.

    Some of you guys establish your own facts through agreement with each other.

    I learned some of this through life and some through a personal injury lawyer who files claims against HO policies for a living. So, where did you guys learn your set of facts, through each other?



    If my gun hurts someone in the backcountry or if my bike hurts someone in an intersection, by HO policy will cover those damages. I highly doubt I had to be holding the gun or riding the bike.
    Unless you negligently lent the gun or the bike to someone who clearly should not be using a gun or bike, or unless it took place on your property, then yes, you would have to be the one holding the gun or riding the bike.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    24,521

    Default Re: Help

    You still have not indicated any evidence whatsoever to suggest that if Bob borrows a tool from Ed, and then Bob uses Ed's tool to damage Bob's own property in Bob's own house, that Ed is in any way responsible. It's your theory; you back it up. Oh, that's right, you've already refused to do so, haven't you? Could that be because you can't?

    Remind anyone here of another (frequently banned) poster who used to make outlandish claims, and then insist it was up to everyone else to disprove them and not up to him to prove them?

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    7,056

    Default Re: Help

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    An employment relationship is a contractual relationship..
    Yes, all employment relationships are contractual but not all contractual relationships are employment relationships. It depends on whether the employee is an employee or an independent contractor according to the FLSA and the state's case law and statutes as the code you linked to states.

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    (c) whatever the law may require, some contractors don't carry insurance or allow their policies to lapse..
    Well then if they represent themselves as licensed and do not have the required coverage for property damage or comp, I would think that they are SOL for work related injury.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    4,301

    Default Re: Help

    Quote Quoting budwad
    View Post
    Yes, all employment relationships are contractual but not all contractual relationships are employment relationships. It depends on whether the employee is an employee or an independent contractor according to the FLSA and the state's case law and statutes as the code you linked to states.



    Well then if they represent themselves as licensed and do not have the required coverage for property damage or comp, I would think that they are SOL for work related injury.
    There is a reason that contractors require subcontractors to provide a Certificate of Insurance. If they don't the a claim could be made on the contractor's WC policy and they would also have to, in many cases, pay Work Comp premium on the uninsured sub's employees at audit.

    With the exception of paying work comp premiums this holds true to a home owner that hires a person or even business to work on their home. This is why one would be well advised to not only get proof of licensure on someone that works on your home but also a CoI with the homeowner's name as the certificate holder.

    I have file with my plumber, HVAC and lawn care companies' CoIs. They all renew January 1 so I send an email to all of them requesting new certs every Jan 1.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
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    24,521

    Default Re: Help

    And all of this discussion about contractors and contracts is irrelevant since there are no contractors, no contracts, and no employment relationships in the scenario provided by the OP of the original thread.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    4,301

    Default Re: Help

    No CBG it isn't but if you hire a non-insured worker on to your property you could be held responsible for injuries. That's why only the 1st of the 3 paragraphs are dealing with contractors.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    24,521

    Default Re: Help

    Sorry, I'd initially lost track of the fact that this thread had been broken off the original and was discussing the tangent rather than the initial question. I edited in the last four words of my above post when I realized it.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    4,301

    Default Re: Help

    No prob. It sort of confused be as well when they first split them off.

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