Gambling Chargeback Denied

[jbond]

My question involves collection proceedings in the State of: NY
I tested a gambling site that had good reviews, won 5x my initial deposit in a little over a week. I was not allowed to withdraw because of some made up absurd rollover (which really isn't listed had this not been a gambling site I could win off that alone.) I disputed the charge because if a place is going to make up a reason to not pay me i'm not going to risk a long timeframe where the dispute becomes questionable, and hope that they pay me all of a sudden without any new absurd conditions.
I disputed the charge, and when they sent the paperwork I wrote on it how I never received any goods or services, and the vendor can provide no evidence of doing so (which they cannot.) When they asked about contact, I wrote the vendor wrote me an email after the dispute asking for pictures of my id and credit card, and proclaimed this was the only way they can help me and that clearly they were trying to scam me. When asked why I did not fill out sections (the main one being reason for the charge or something) I wrote because I do not wish to disclose an embarrassing scam I fell for and again that I never received anything from the company; and that they do not need to know my personal information (maybe I ordered sex toys, a self help service to get laid, who knows lol.) I did not receive a denial letter yet, saw it on my statement. I tried to get them to email me the denial letter instead of waiting for mail, but no luck and before I speak to someone:

1. Any good ideas to say?
2. If all fails can I be like it was a gambling charge, report the bank to someone and just screw them (obviously I won't get my money back, but if they want to not side with their customer I will screw them anyways, as I care far more about principle then money I was prepared to lose.) I won so it is not like i'm committing fraud, the only potential fraud on my behalf is the reason I gave for the dispute, which is vague and can be easily seen as true as they didn't provide the service offered by not paying me.
3. What are the odds the vendor said I was gambling in an effort to screw me lol (how can the bank openly pay them though legally?), as I don't see how I could not be sided with? I mean the shell company doesn't even have a website, wtf do these dispute guys investigate?

Thanks.

[PayrolGuy]

What makes you think the site can't prove they provided a service? They have logs of all your play.

[Mr. Knowitall]

So, basically, you admitted to the credit card company that you made a charge and claimed that you received nothing in return, but you refused to provide them with any information about what it is you were attempting to purchase? And now you're concerned that you will lose your dispute because of your failure to provide that information?

This is going to be an overseas gambling site so, all else being equal, the FTC's regulations for chargebacks over quality of goods and services won't apply -- the company is not within your home state or within 100 miles of your residence. That means you will have to follow your credit card company's rules to dispute the charge. If their rule is that they will not grant a chargeback unless you identify what it is you were attempting to purchase, then that's the rule you must follow.

Credit card companies are not permitted to make payments to illegal overseas gambling operations. Had you disclosed that this was an illegal offshore gambling site, that might have been enough to result in a chargeback. But the longer you wait, the less likely it is that there will be money left in the company's account that the credit card company can reach in order to grant a chargeback -- and you may miss the credit card company's deadline for making the report.

Most overseas gambling companies don't make the charges themselves, but put them through businesses that the credit card company might see as legitimate. That could have been another angle: If you pay $1,000 to a credit card company and they process the charge as your having bought $1,000 worth of electronics from a company you've never heard of, then the basis for the dispute is that you've never done business with the company that appears on your credit card statement.

[jbond]

What makes you think the site can't prove they provided a service? They have logs of all your play.

I assumed they would not show that, but again if it was a legal service I have screenshots, chat logs etc, of their made up rollover policy as well and i'd be able to win off that.

So, basically, you admitted to the credit card company that you made a charge and claimed that you received nothing in return, but you refused to provide them with any information about what it is you were attempting to purchase? And now you're concerned that you will lose your dispute because of your failure to provide that information?

This is going to be an overseas gambling site so, all else being equal, the FTC's regulations for chargebacks over quality of goods and services won't apply -- the company is not within your home state or within 100 miles of your residence. That means you will have to follow your credit card company's rules to dispute the charge. If their rule is that they will not grant a chargeback unless you identify what it is you were attempting to purchase, then that's the rule you must follow.

Credit card companies are not permitted to make payments to illegal overseas gambling operations. Had you disclosed that this was an illegal offshore gambling site, that might have been enough to result in a chargeback. But the longer you wait, the less likely it is that there will be money left in the company's account that the credit card company can reach in order to grant a chargeback -- and you may miss the credit card company's deadline for making the report.

Most overseas gambling companies don't make the charges themselves, but put them through businesses that the credit card company might see as legitimate. That could have been another angle: If you pay $1,000 to a credit card company and they process the charge as your having bought $1,000 worth of electronics from a company you've never heard of, then the basis for the dispute is that you've never done business with the company that appears on your credit card statement.

Thanks for the quick reply. I can disclose to the bank it is a gambling site? I was under the impression they would instantly deny me and take potential drastic measures (such as even freezing my account.) I mean I'll show the evidence of how they didn't pay me, no problem there, the issue is the legality.

[adjusterjack]

Obviously, the whole thing is illegal and you willingly participated in it and got scammed.

Then you lied to your bank in an attempt to get the chargeback.

I think you are done.

Get over it and move on.

[jbond]

Obviously, the whole thing is illegal and you willingly participated in it and got scammed.

Then you lied to your bank in an attempt to get the chargeback.

I think you are done.

Get over it and move on.

I never lied, which is why I omitted any responses that would be a lie. I'm not sure of the accepted legal definition of gambling, but I'd imagine it requires you to receive something for your risk, which I did not. I may not receive my initial money (I sure as hell am not getting my winnings of course), but I will be damned if I will let the site have it, or if I will allow my bank to get away with siding with them. Of course that may be the case, but I have a strong feeling that if the bank allows this charge it is not good for them. The legality aspect doesn't pursue players as I understand, but hey that's why i'm asking for other opinions.

[aaron]

You have opted not to give the bank the information it requested to evaluate your situation. You are waiting for a decision. You will find out when that decision is made, whether or not your omission causes you to lose your dispute, but if you lose due to your failure to follow the bank's processes it's not an issue of their taking sides.

[jbond]

You have opted not to give the bank the information it requested to evaluate your situation. You are waiting for a decision. You will find out when that decision is made, whether or not your omission causes you to lose your dispute, but if you lose due to your failure to follow the bank's processes it's not an issue of their taking sides.

I understand what you are saying, however the form gives you a place to explain why you didn't answer everything and even says you don't have to. I am waiting for their official letter I guess (why i'm avoiding a phone call to not say anything potentially wrong.) I doubt all decisions are final, and more importantly I'm pretty sure the law requires the vendor to provide information and then still will side with the consumer. I could be wrong but this is how it seems, which is why I can't fathom why a dispute would go against me as there is nothing the shell company could show that shows anything. Even if they show betting activity or something (how will they prove that is me btw), it would be with the companies real name, not the shell payment.

[adjusterjack]

I never lied, which is why I omitted any responses that would be a lie.

Didn't Nixon and Clinton say things like that?

I'm not sure of the accepted legal definition of gambling, but I'd imagine it requires you to receive something for your risk, which I did not.

Seriously?

What you received is the opportunity to win, but not a guarantee.

When you go to a casino and bet your money on a game of chance you have GAMBLED. When you lose the casino doesn't give you back your money just because you are sad about losing.

I do understand that you won instead of lost. But that's the difference between legal gambling and illegal gambling.

With legal gambling you get your winnings.

With illegal gambling the house can rob you blind with impunity, especially if they are safely ensconced in some foreign country half way across the planet.

or if I will allow my bank to get away with siding with them. Of course that may be the case, but I have a strong feeling that if the bank allows this charge it is not good for them.

Your bank isn't "siding" with anybody. It's following the rules of your account holder's contract (have you read it yet) and if your request for a chargeback doesn't meet the terms and conditions of the account holder's contract then it gets denied.

[jbond]

I'm no attorney but gambling has clearly defined amounts that you risk for a reward, and you are expected to get that reward if you are correct. I'm sure there are many cases that cite this or otherwise every casino in the US could legally not pay anyone.

Nothing in the contract states rules about what I need to show. I complied with their time frames for disputes and responses. Quite frankly i'm debating making up the details they want as the shell company can't rebute them or just straight up be like it was a gambling charge and if they don't refund me i'll report how they willingly allowed a gambling charge to go through. Going to ask two of my buddies that are attorneys tomorrow and see what they think, not their area but wth.

I did speak to someone and yes the bank sided against me. They didn't follow any objective protocol (example the law requires we have xx or something) as while I still have to wait for the slow mail, they said I was denied from lack of evidence. It is absurd to think that someone who was scammed would be able to get statements from the scammer saying they were scammed lol. The dispute rep also changed what was required as sufficient documentation every time I asked from an email communication, to a receipt, to a phone call... I know they never spoke with anyone and are just jerking me around. I really don't understand it as I haven't had a dispute or fraudulent charge complaint in longer than I can remember, and I also know a huge amount of jerkoffs claim they never receive packages despite tracking info and they always seem to win. My bank could also easily have sided with me and let the "vendor" come after me, which of course they wouldn't be able to.

Your cc contract read was a good suggestion, although not really helpful in this case it does say they have to provide me with documentation they made their decision on, so we shall see wtf they have. In the end i'm sure i'll probably get nothing other than more frustration (which I apologize for if it comes across), but they lost an account that they should be making far more than this entire dispute was for, and have already. will lose my cc account as well when this is resolved, so the bank loses, I lose, and the crooks win lol. Lesson learned, lie my ass off and say I never made the charge if I ever run into an issue with a credit transaction again.