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  1. #1
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    Default LIDAR Speeding Issued by the Highway Patrol on an Arizona Indian Reservation

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: Arizona


    A few weeks ago I was pulled over traveling southbound on L-101 in the Scottsdale, AZ area. The officer was part of DPS (Highway Patrol)
    He was a motorcycle cop standing in the emergency lane (next to the HOV carpool lane) next to his motorcycle holding a LIDAR.

    I do not believe he performed a visual estimation of my car instead only relying on the LIDAR device but I'm not too worried about that since he will just say he did visually estimate my speed and there is no way to prove he didn't.

    My question is this. I have confirmed that the section of freeway I was traveling on is within the boundaries of the Salt-River Pima Indian Reservation. I am curious about any jurisdictional issues that I can bring up regarding this ticket. Obviously I feel I wasn't speeding which is why I'm going to fight the ticket at a hearing.

    I have looked through things but am hoping some people much more intelligent in the matter can help out. I am not sure if the Salt River Indian Reservation has an inter-governmental agreement allowing state troopers to operate on their land. I have found a IGA agreement between the highway patrol and a different indian reservation stating that any state trooper that operates on indian land must go through a training course directly with their tribe's police force before they are certified to conduct business.. even through they may be AZ POST certified.
    I am hoping that at my hearing the officer will not have been through this training, or if he has.. did not bring any proof with him to show that the training has been completed.

    I'm also curious about trying to find out specific Arizona rules, regulations, or statues that spell out how often the LIDAR units must be calibrated and tested.

    Any help?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Arizona LIDAR Speed Ticket on Indian Reservation by Highway Patrol

    I've lived in Phoenix since 1972.

    Trust me when I tell you that the 101 is DPS territory. Period.

    You're not going to beat the ticket raising that Indian land issue. Nor will you beat it by the "beat the ticket" Lidar challenge that you read about on the "beat the ticket" websites.

    As for the officer not visually estimating your speed how could he not.

    Traffic on the 101 (except for the rush hour slow down) routinely goes 70 mph in the 65 mph limit.

    You can't miss the leadfoots going 75 to 80 and getting ahead of everybody. I see it every time I drive the 101 and I drive it quite often.

    You know you were properly nailed, I know you were properly nailed, and the officer knows you were properly nailed.

    Take traffic school if you are eligible.

    Next time you are on the 101 set your cruise control to 65, get in the right lane and relax.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Arizona LIDAR Speed Ticket on Indian Reservation by Highway Patrol

    Quote Quoting adjusterjack
    View Post
    I've lived in Phoenix since 1972.
    Trust me when I tell you that the 101 is DPS territory. Period.
    No thanks, I'd rather trust state statues and department rules and regulations.

    Quote Quoting adjusterjack
    View Post
    You know you were properly nailed, I know you were properly nailed, and the officer knows you were properly nailed.

    actually, you don't know.
    I have GPS records showing I was not speeding. While that *will* be a part of my defense in the hearing, I'm looking for other defense avenues as well.

    I took a look at some of your recent post history and you seem very confrontational with people and have a very pessimistic and negative attitude towards those looking for help or advice.
    Let's assume the whole 'innocent until proven guilty' is still actually a thing here in America and if you want to come in with preconceptions of guilt please take that to another post. Thanks.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Arizona LIDAR Speed Ticket on Indian Reservation by Highway Patrol

    Quote Quoting cyr0nk0r
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    I have GPS records showing I was not speeding. While that *will* be a part of my defense in the hearing, I'm looking for other defense avenues as well.
    When was the last time your GPS was calibrated as a speed measuring device prior to you being cited? Be sure to bring your calibration certificate to court as the judge will ask to see it. (Just a heads up.)

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Arizona LIDAR Speed Ticket on Indian Reservation by Highway Patrol

    A typical GPS is useful for pinpointing your location, but is not designed to accurately measure speed, let alone speed at a specific point in time. Authenticating GPS records and supporting the position that they are a valid measure of speed in court is, to put it mildly difficult. It will typically require expert testimony, the cost of which is disproportionate to the cost of paying a ticket.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Arizona LIDAR Speed Ticket on Indian Reservation by Highway Patrol

    Report back with the results of your trial. If I'm wrong I will apologize.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Arizona LIDAR Speed Ticket on Indian Reservation by Highway Patrol

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    A typical GPS is useful for pinpointing your location, but is not designed to accurately measure speed, let alone speed at a specific point in time. Authenticating GPS records and supporting the position that they are a valid measure of speed in court is, to put it mildly difficult. It will typically require expert testimony, the cost of which is disproportionate to the cost of paying a ticket.
    The GPS data is a tracking data directly from the car. I've done a few traffic tickets over the years (won some, lost some) but have never done anything with GPS. I'm unfamiliar with the need for an expert witness. Why would this be required? Where might I find a person like this?

    Why would the state not need an expert witness surrounding the LIDAR unit? (And no, the officer is not an expert witness)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Arizona LIDAR Speed Ticket on Indian Reservation by Highway Patrol

    Quote Quoting cyr0nk0r
    View Post
    The GPS data is a tracking data directly from the car. I've done a few traffic tickets over the years (won some, lost some) but have never done anything with GPS. I'm unfamiliar with the need for an expert witness. Why would this be required? Where might I find a person like this?

    Why would the state not need an expert witness surrounding the LIDAR unit? (And no, the officer is not an expert witness)
    You will need to satisfy the court as to the accuracy of your GPS with respect to tracking location and speed. There are few companies that will test and certify an over the counter or vehicle GPS to do this and as Mr. K pointed out, it will be expensive for you to do so and have their technician testify on your behalf. OTOH, because LIDAR results are used in court routinely, the units are tested and certified periodically and the courts routinely accept calibration certificates alone to that effect.

    Should you wish to challenge the findings of the technician who calibrated the LIDAR device in question, prior to trial you will need to seek discovery, obtain a copy of the curent LIDAR certificate, identify the technician and subpoena him to testify. I would use caution in doing this. Unless you are well versed in LIDAR devices, you will not know the correct questions to ask and it will appear you are doing this simply to prolong the trial and be a PITA because you are pissed that you got a ticket. Courts to not take kindly to such tactics.

    ,

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Arizona LIDAR Speed Ticket on Indian Reservation by Highway Patrol

    It is good to know about the GPS expert witness, but I would like to steer the conversation back towards the jurisdictional questions.
    Indian Reservations are sovereign land. The state of Arizona and by extension state troopers cannot simply have jurisdiction on sovereign land just because its boundaries are within their state.

    Here is an example of an IGA between the AZ DPS and the Navajo Nation
    https://www.aisc.ucla.edu/iloc/resou...fAgreement.pdf
    If you look at section VII it states:
    Section VII Application for Certification
    A. The Director of AZ DPS, or his or her designee, shall complete and submit the
    NATION’s Peace Officer Commission Card form (Exhibit 1) for each AZ DPS officer
    who is qualified for a mutual aid law enforcement certification. An AZ DPS officer is
    qualified if he or she completes the required training pursuant to Subsection B,
    satisfactorily meets all requirements on the Peace Officer Commission Card form, and
    the Director of DPS, or his or her designee, submits a statement of qualifications that
    includes certification of a satisfactory background check conducted within the last five
    years of the date of the application and copies of a currently valid State of Arizona
    driver’s license and a valid Arizona Department of Public Safety law enforcement
    certification card for each applicant.

    B. AZ DPS officers shall complete a 16-hour training course at the NATION’s police
    academy, or at such other location agreed upon by the Parties, prior to receiving a mutual
    aid law enforcement certification by the NATION.
    I'm hoping something like this exists between AZ DPS and the Salt-River Pima Reservation

    Here is another document for the state of AZ tribal consulatation polices.
    https://www.azahcccs.gov/AmericanInd...onPolicies.pdf
    On page 67 it clearly states the following:
    Governors Office of Highway Safety recognizes the sovereignty of Tribal governments and their jurisdiction over lands within
    Indian County as defined by federal law. The definition in federal law includes all lands within
    reservation boundaries (18 USCA §1151). GOHS will not assert authority over Indian Country.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Arizona LIDAR Speed Ticket on Indian Reservation by Highway Patrol

    If memory serves me correctly, Arizona police have authority to arrest non-Indians for traffic violations, See United States v. McBratney, 104 U.S. 621, 624, 26 L.Ed. 869 (1881);  Draper v. United States, 164 U.S. 240, 247, 17 S.Ct. 107, 41 L.Ed. 419 (1896), but they do not have authority to arrest tribal members on tribal lands.

    By any chance can you prove tribal membership?

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