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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    38,867

    Default Re: How I Beat My California Speeding Ticket

    I sure hope you aren't selling your book. Your "understanding" of lidar speedn
    detectors is poor at best.

    You should check out the specs on the lidar used and calculate just how large the "spot" was. The minimal error caused by not hitting the "exact point" (if you calculate the actual size of the spot you will realize how invalid your claims are) will not cause an error large enough to make a difference. You should also realize that there are several hundred, at least, measurements taken during a speed check, all in less than half a second, which allows for a very accurate measurement.

  2. #2

    Default Re: How I Beat My California Speeding Ticket

    Quote Quoting jk
    View Post
    I sure hope you aren't selling your book. Your "understanding" of lidar speedn
    detectors is poor at best.

    You should check out the specs on the lidar used and calculate just how large the "spot" was. The minimal error caused by not hitting the "exact point" (if you calculate the actual size of the spot you will realize how invalid your claims are) will not cause an error large enough to make a difference. You should also realize that there are several hundred, at least, measurements taken during a speed check, all in less than half a second, which allows for a very accurate measurement.
    I did look up specs and calculated a beam width of ~10 feet for my situation.

    Lidar *can* be accurate, but the devices have to be used properly. The CHP publish an operating manual and the lidar device manufacturers publish operating instructions, too. I obtained copies and the officer did NOT follow the instructions. Accordingly, the measurement can't be expected to be accurate.

    cdwjava you are correct, argument is untested. But I still won. :-)

    It's true that motorists can be cited by officers who don't use tripods. However, that fact alone has no bearing on the accuracy of the measurement. And the documentation I read recommends that supports are used.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    38,867

    Default Re: How I Beat My California Speeding Ticket

    So a beam width of 10 feet? Your statement of the light "must hit
    the exact same point on the car" fails if the beam width is 10 feet. A car is about 6' wide.

    I don't know the distance involved for you but to have a beam width of 10 feet you would have to be at least 700 yards (at the max allowable divergence of 5 milliradian (per federal rule) . 1 milliraidian @ 100 yards results in approx 3.6" ). You said you you were several hundred feet away. At 600 feet (200 yards) the beam would be about 36". (3.6 x 5 x 2) at the max allowable divergence. Your argument of hitting the exact same spot fails at that distance as well.

    And realize that is at the max divergence as allowed by law. The actual beam width is likely smaller.

    LTI (a lidar smd manufacturer) states their beam width is about 3 feet at 1000 feet.

    If your book is as imprecise as your calculations, well, let's just say it wouldn't be worth the sales price if it were free.

    As to you winning. You got lucky. The cop didn't show. If
    the cop showed, using the arguments you've provided so far, there is no reason to believe you would have won.

  4. #4

    Default Re: How I Beat My California Speeding Ticket

    Quote Quoting jk
    View Post
    So a beam width of 10 feet? Your statement of the light "must hit
    the exact same point on the car" fails if the beam width is 10 feet. A car is about 6' wide.
    10 feet wide is almost as wide as the lanes on the freeway - and I was ticketed at a relatively busy time. The measured speed might be for another car completely.

    10 feet really is very wide...the light could have bounced off any combination of the wing mirrors; top of the windshield; base of windshield; radiator; license plate. It's a huge source of error. If you don't want to buy my book, Google "Lowdown on Lidar" by Josh Bloch.

    Quote Quoting jk
    View Post
    I don't know the distance involved for you but to have a beam width of 10 feet you would have to be at least 700 yards (at the max allowable divergence of 5 milliradian (per federal rule) . 1 milliraidian @ 100 yards results in approx 3.6" ). You said you you were several hundred feet away. At 600 feet (200 yards) the beam would be about 36". (3.6 x 5 x 2) at the max allowable divergence. Your argument of hitting the exact same spot fails at that distance as well.
    That's the whole point, the beam is so wide that's it's unrealistic to expect it to hit the same spot on the car, especially one being driven down a hill.

    I don't know the exact distance either, because neither the DA nor the CHP fully responded to my request for discovery. However, I estimate ~1000 ft or so.

    Quote Quoting jk
    View Post
    And realize that is at the max divergence as allowed by law. The actual beam width is likely smaller.

    LTI (a lidar smd manufacturer) states their beam width is about 3 feet at 1000 feet.
    That will depend on how it's used.

    Quote Quoting jk
    View Post
    If your book is as imprecise as your calculations, well, let's just say it wouldn't be worth the sales price if it were free.
    There's nothing wrong with my calculations, and they are all referenced. The problem is with the way the officers use the lidar devices.

    Quote Quoting jk
    View Post
    As to you winning. You got lucky. The cop didn't show. If
    the cop showed, using the arguments you've provided so far, there is no reason to believe you would have won.
    It's true that my arguments are untested. It's also true that I was lucky that the cop didn't show.

    But the most important thing is that I won, and I feel one reason that I did was because I dragged the process out over nine months. All in the book. :-)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    California
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    Default Re: How I Beat My California Speeding Ticket

    Fascinating that the professional defense bar has not uncovered this glaring flaw in the use of lidar that you claim to have discovered.

    I think you overestimate the strength of the claim you make. You also forget that radar trained officers are also trained in visual estimation, so regardless of the lidar they will also testify that they made a visual estimation of the speed of your vehicle (which was confirmed by their use of radar/lidar). So, I wouldn't count those chickens so fast.

    But, if all a person has is a Hail Mary and they do not need a guarantee of traffic school, why not go for the end zone in an all-or-nothing pass?

  6. #6

    Default Re: How I Beat My California Speeding Ticket

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Fascinating that the professional defense bar has not uncovered this glaring flaw in the use of lidar that you claim to have discovered.
    I don't claim to have discovered anything. My book is abundantly referenced. Even the lidar manufacturer documentation alludes to the aforementioned shortcomings that daily use of their equipment entails. And the professional defense bar know all about this stuff. It's even referred to in attorney David Brown's book, for example. (Published by Nolo.)

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    I think you overestimate the strength of the claim you make.
    OK. It was untested.

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    You also forget that radar trained officers are also trained in visual estimation, so regardless of the lidar they will also testify that they made a visual estimation of the speed of your vehicle (which was confirmed by their use of radar/lidar). So, I wouldn't count those chickens so fast.
    I did get info on this. The officer was tested for visual estimation at speeds significantly lower (40-50 mph, from memory) than the 70 mph limit on the freeway. No evidence at all that his visual estimation ability was tested at higher speeds. Neither was there evidence that visual estimation at lower speeds translates to higher speeds.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    20,594

    Default Re: How I Beat My California Speeding Ticket

    So, you obtained his training info and the syllabus used in his training course?

    When I was a training manager, I recall my officers being trained in visual estimation on freeway speeds as well as lower speeds, and there were a significant number of such estimations. And, since we are not talking about even +/- 2 MPH, we are talking about deviations of, perhaps, 5 MPH, I suspect the court would be comfortable with their estimation. I was not radar trained (though I was a collision investigator), so I do not have firsthand radar training experience, but, most of my officers were.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    8,006

    Default Re: How I Beat My California Speeding Ticket

    Quote Quoting rtg20
    View Post
    I did get info on this. The officer was tested for visual estimation at speeds significantly lower (40-50 mph, from memory) than the 70 mph limit on the freeway. No evidence at all that his visual estimation ability was tested at higher speeds. Neither was there evidence that visual estimation at lower speeds translates to higher speeds.
    What makes you think the fact he wasn't tested at higher speeds means anything? If he can accurately gauge lower speeds, odds are pretty darn good he can also accurately gauge higher speeds.

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