What Constitutes Proof That a Child Care Expense Was Incurred

[MoralChaos]

My question involves a child custody case from the State of: Utah

First I need to lay out the situation. My ex and I have 5 children and have 50/50 custody both physical and legal. Parent time is a full week at a time with each parent. We currently have 2 children that need to be watched throughout the day as each of us works. Our decree specifies that each of us is responsible for half of any child care expenses that are incurred by the other party. Initially we had a daycare we took the kids to but we eventually moved to each of us acquiring our own person to watch the kids on our week.

My sister in law currently acts as my nanny and I use a service to pay her like an employee. By that I mean taxes, unemployment insurance, hourly wage, w2s etc. The service I use pays her with direct deposit twice monthly and she gets a pay stub.

My ex has used a hodgepodge of 10 different people and pays them directly with Venmo(similar to PayPal).

In the past she has just sent me a document showing the she had paid somebody something but it was always just something she created herself and didn't actually prove she had incurred an expense.

Recently she decided she was going to start paying her mother a flat monthly amount for taking the kids places or to watch the kids last minute if whoever is supposed to watch the kids that day can't do it. The Hilarious thing about watching the kids last minute is that she still pays her mother for the day she watches them on top of the regular flat fee.

When this charge appeared on the spreadsheet we use to track who owes what I pushed back that I wanted some actual proof that an expense was being incurred. She said she would get a receipt from her mother stating that she was paying her. I pushed back on that and said I wanted proof of an expense that she or her mother weren't generating themselves. I know she uses Venmo to pay her providers and I'm pretty sure she could provide a receipt from that system but is refusing.

After some additional pushing I found out that she hadn't actually paid her mother with money. She had "sold" her mother some furniture and agreed that her mother would pay for the furniture with this flat monthly fee. I don't actually have any proof that she actually sold her furniture either.

Long story short, I am asking her for proof that an expense was incurred for not only her mother's services but now also for all the other people she uses to watch the children. I want something printed out from a third party system that she or the person she has conspired with can't just create themselves. I know she isn't paying these people using cash but she refuses to provide something not self created for any of them. It makes me think she may be paying them less than she is claiming.

Can I require proof other than just a hand written receipt from the person who is providing the care? Like I said, she has proof that she paid them but is refusing to provide it.

[adjusterjack]

Can I require proof other than just a hand written receipt from the person who is providing the care?

You can "require" anything you want to "require."

If she doesn't comply you can take her back to court and see if the judge will order her to comply.

Hard to imagine you don't know that.

[eerelations]

What's wrong with a handwritten and signed receipt? Given that whoever fraudulently signs such a receipt knows that he/she is committing a crime...

[MoralChaos]

You can "require" anything you want to "require."

If she doesn't comply you can take her back to court and see if the judge will order her to comply.

Hard to imagine you don't know that.

I can reframe the question to the topic of the thread. What constitutes proof that a child care expense was incurred? If I do end up needing to take her to court to resolve this, well technically mediation first as required by our decree, what do you believe the level of proof will need to be? After I get input here my next step is to contact my attorney with the issue. I'm just trying to get a feel of how I should approach it and also trying to gauge whether I'm going to be wasting my time and money if it's likely that some hand written note from her providers is sufficient proof that an expense happened.

What's wrong with a handwritten and signed receipt? Given that whoever fraudulently signs such a receipt knows that he/she is committing a crime...

The problem I have with a signed and hand written receipt from her or more specifically her mother is that they aren't above committing a small crime like this. Essentially my ex gave her mom some furniture 9 months ago that she is now claiming her mom is paying her for by watching the kids or taking them places. This flat rate charge for her mothers services didn't appear until she was required to pay back child support by a child support modification order that was retroactive. She tried to make her mothers services retroactive as well and claimed three months worth expense for those services. Fortunately the terms of reporting new child care expenses as outlined in our decree disallowed that. The quick answer to your question is that they aren't honest.

[adjusterjack]

After I get input here my next step is to contact my attorney with the issue.

I don't know why people keep doing this when they have an attorney.

You should be asking your attorney. He'd be the one to know what a judge would want to see.

But, OK, if you just want a "feel" for it, let's talk real dollars.

Take April, for example (or whatever month you have complete figures for). How much money are you claiming for your child care expenses for just that month (never mind the documentation) and how much money is your ex claiming for that same month (also never mind the documentation).

Give me a dollar amount for each of you for that month.

By the way, whose bright idea was this:

Our decree specifies that each of us is responsible for half of any child care expenses that are incurred by the other party.

The consequences of that were predictable and inevitable.

Why not each party just pay their own child care expenses? Makes a lot more sense. Nothing to fight over.

[MoralChaos]

adjusterJack, "Utah State Code 78B-12-214 Child care expenses -- Expenses not incurred" was incorporated into our decree along with some other language that specified how child care expenses should be handled. Her attorney drafted much of the petition for divorce and my attorney confirmed much of what was included was standard and common. So I guess the answer to your question is that the Utah State Legislature came up with that idea.

Her child care expenses for April were 1170 and my expenses were 1290. These expenses include health insurance, activity costs, school expenses, child care etc.

[qwaspolk69]

I don't know why people keep doing this when they have an attorney.

You should be asking your attorney. He'd be the one to know what a judge would want to see.

But, OK, if you just want a "feel" for it, let's talk real dollars.

Take April, for example (or whatever month you have complete figures for). How much money are you claiming for your child care expenses for just that month (never mind the documentation) and how much money is your ex claiming for that same month (also never mind the documentation).

Give me a dollar amount for each of you for that month.

By the way, whose bright idea was this:



The consequences of that were predictable and inevitable.

Why not each party just pay their own child care expenses? Makes a lot more sense. Nothing to fight over.

My decree says child care is split 50/50 and unreimbursed medical is 50/50. That's what my lawyer came up with - and my ex didn't show up to court. Do I get half of anything or child support? Nope. I thought that was standard in divorces to split daycare 50/50.

[jumanji]

So you're complaining that she pays $120 less than you do? And you only owe her $60, in effect? (on average)

SMH.

[MoralChaos]

So you're complaining that she pays $120 less than you do? And you only owe her $60, in effect? (on average)

SMH.

Lol. The poster who asked for amounts specified undocumented. 800 of her monthly amount she provides no proof of. I have typically allowed it until she decided to add bogus expenses. Right now she is close to 1000 behind. I would rather nip this in the bud than allow it to get worse. Trust me, if I owed her 60 dollars she would demand it immeadiatley.

[adjusterjack]

Her child care expenses for April were 1170 and my expenses were 1290. These expenses include health insurance, activity costs, school expenses, child care etc.

So you owe her 585.

She owes you 645.

Net to you 60.

And you want to make a federal case out of it?

If I were the judge I'd kick you both the hell out of my courtroom and tell you never to come back.

Why don't you and your ex just agree that each pays their own child care expenses. Put it in writing and file it with the court as a stipulation if you have to.

Or do you both hate each other so much that agreeing on anything (even if it makes sense) is impossible.

Divorced people disgust me.