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  1. #1
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    Default Defenses to a Ticket for Speeding on Downhill, CVC 22350

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California.

    This is my traffic ticket: http://imgur.com/a/8ivfs

    Hello everyone. First off I would like to thank you for reading my thread, and as I am ignorant about specific traffic laws, I hope that anyone who's reading this can help me and/or provide their thoughts on this matter.

    Only September 22nd, 2016 I received a CVC 22350 ticket at Time 1410 as its stated on my traffic ticket (It is not in my traffic ticket picture because I omitted personal information). According to the officer, I was driving 55 in a 40 zone and he used Lidar @ 410 ft to measure my speed. Please clarify what "Lidar @ 410 ft" means. In the following link

    https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6722...8i6656!6m1!1e1 - This is a google maps link of where I begin my downhill descent. You can use this as reference. I will also be providing pertinent pictures that starts from my downhill descent up until where I received my ticket.

    Here's what happen from me:

    I was on Adams Ave, heading west, driving in the 3rd lane to the right of the divider. I approached the intersection and waited in the left turn lane (1st car in the lane). Once I saw the green arrow I turned left on Placentia Avenue, going into the 2nd land right of the divider and heading southbound. The conditions were very optimal that day. The road was between light and medium traffic, the weather was clear, and the road conditions were dry.

    In the following picture: http://imgur.com/a/khZq8, this shows the beginning of my downhill descent after turning left onto placentia ave. I also circled the speed limit at the time for reference.

    By the time I was around the approximate location of this picture http://imgur.com/a/l0hBV, I was approaching the alleged speed without pressing on the gas pedal. I frequent on this road a lot as I use this road to go to school 4 times a week so I generally back off on the gas pedal and let the momentum of the gravity push my car so I do not have to waste gas. There is a red circle where the police officer on his motorbike was positioned on Swan Cir. Here is another angle of where the police officer was located (again marked with the red circle): http://imgur.com/a/ZW9xz

    I believe after passing Swan Cir in the previous picture, the officer on his motorbike begin to follow me, but he did not immediately pulled me over. At this point, I have not yet realized he was following me. In thihttp://imgur.com/a/gVE6E is approximately 50-100 feet from where I passed Swan Circle. I added a small red circle to indicate that approximately this location, I was not maintaining my speed anymore and let go of the gas pedal. The reason being is because I wanted to slow the car down using the uphill gravity without having to apply the brakes. I do this knowing that there were no cars in front of me and if there were, they were very far up ahead. I also switched to the right lane from the left lane because I needed to make a right turn.

    As I stated previously about not pressing on the gas pedal going uphill, in this picture: http://imgur.com/a/z79TC, By the time I approached the bridge and went under it, I was going slower than I was going at the time I passed the officer on Swan Cir. I was occasionally pressing on the gas pedal in order to maintain my speed, if not, slowly let it go down by 1-3 mph. I knew I was approaching an intersection (indicated by the red circle) so I was not going as fast in case the light was red. Here is a closer look at the intersection, a bit farther down than the previous picture http://imgur.com/a/sA5Oh.

    I believe at the time, the intersection was a green light for me so I continued on my way down Placentia Ave. In this picture: http://imgur.com/a/bVYFP I approached a slight left bend after passing the aforementioned intersection. I also have the speed limit of 40 MPH circled as point of reference. At this point, I was approaching Estancia High School and slowed down as there might be more pedestrians, specifically students. But because the speed limit was 40 MPH and I did not see any students walking around at all, I assumed that either the school did not end yet or it has already ended and the students have already left so I maintain a slightly above average the posted limit. At this point in time, the officer still did not flash his lights yet and I have yet to realize he was following me.

    As I go down the left bend, I begin to slow down considerably as I approached the next intersection. This is the intersection where the officer flashed his lights. When I reached halfway point between the two intersection, I had visual confirmation that the light was red because I saw vehicles that were not moving in my lane. In this picture, I circled where I was approximately was located as I did not remember which order I was in, but I definitely do remember I was not the car closest to the red light: http://imgur.com/a/1Tvp5. Here is another picture that is closer to the intersection of where I got pulled over and I circled the name of the intersecting street as point of reference. http://imgur.com/a/QJDwK.

    During the time the light was red, I suddenly saw lights behind me and realized the presence of the officer. Once the lights turn green, I slowly drove my car into the parking lot in front of the school circled here in
    http://imgur.com/a/vrzQM. I went through the common procedures in which I kept my hands on the wheels looking straight ahead. The officer approached me and went through the common courtesy of creating small talk before asking me, "Do you know why I pulled you over?" As it was my first time being pulled over by a police officer I did not know how to respond other than "I'm sorry officer, was I speeding?" The officer replied yes and stated that I was going 55 MPH in a 35 MPH zone. I tried to ask the officer if he could let me off with a warning as I am a full-time student and I do not have the money to pay for the traffic ticket as well as saying that it was an emergency because I had an exam I had to take that day. I also needed to use the restroom very badly but I decided not to mention it to him as it was embarrassing. Unfortunately, he said he could not let me off with a warning. According to the officer, due to it being my first time getting pulled over/receiving a ticket, the officer decided to cut me some slack and said I was driving 55 MPH in a 40 MPH zone instead, as well as set my appearance date to late January 2017 to give me time to gathered the money. I accepted the ticket and the officer let me go on my way.


    I want to know what my options are at this point. I was able to request two extensions which delayed my appearance date up until a few days after this post date. By the time of this post, it would have been 200 days since I received my ticket. This number will be even bigger by the time of my trial date if I choose to take this to court. My question is, do I have any chance of winning this ticket?

    I believe my best defense would by a Radar Speed Trap Defense. The reason why I believe this is so is because according to the following link: http://www.helpigotaticket.com/speed/stepbystep.html

    According to the requirements in order for this to qualify as a speed trap defense, the road that I received the ticket on did indeed have a prima facie speed that is not a maximum limit of 70 mph, 65mph, 55 mph on a two lane undivided road or 25 mph in a school zone. Placentia Ave is not considered a "local street or road" because it was marked green (minor arterial) on the California Road Systems Map provided by CalTrans. I have not yet request an Engineering and Traffic Survey yet, but I will tomorrow on April 11th, 2017. Also, according to speedtrap.org (https://www.speedtrap.org/speedtrap/...fairview-park/), It appears that the location where the officer clocked me in at 55 MPH (The officer stated on my traffic ticket that the location of the violation took place on "SB Placentia / Swan Cir.) can be considered a speed trap location.

    Therefore, I believe that the Radar Speed Trap Defense is my best defense. My question to you guys is:

    Is the Radar Speed Trap Defense my best one?

    If not, are there another other defenses I can rely on?

    What are my current options at this point?

    Is there a good chance that because the ticket is so old, the officer has forgotten the details about it; thereby increasing my chance of winning?

    Should I do a Trial by Written Declaration as it is offered to me?

    Because the officer “supposedly” let me off with having a 55 mph on a 40 mph instead of a 55 mph on 35 mph ticket, in the event I lose my trial by declaration and/or trial de novo, can he request for my ticket to be changed to 55 on 35, making it worse for me?

    I also qualify for traffic school as well: http://imgur.com/a/nhNEC.

    In the event I do request a Trial by Written Declaration, how do I go about creating my defense? Should I include the Engineering and Traffic Survey of Placentia Ave in it? I spoke with the county clerk today and she said that if I decide to do a TBWD, I waive my right to Traffic School if I was found guilty. I told her that cannot be the case and she revised it by stating that it is up to the judge's discretion at the time of trial. According to helpigotaticket.com,

    "In spite of what the judge, clerk or bailiff may tell you, you do not give up your right to go to traffic school if you go to trial (see SO, YOU WANT TO GO TO TRAFFIC SCHOOL). If you may want to go to traffic school, should you lose, you need to establish your right to traffic school before you plead not guilty.

    If the courtesy notice states that you may attend traffic school, you have written proof that the court has offered you traffic school and you can proably handle the not guilty at the clerk's window (or even on line). Otherwise, you need to see the judge.

    When the judge asks for your plea, ask if the court is offering you traffic school? Once the judge says yes, say, "Thank you your honor, I will reserve that right per rule of court 4.104(c)(3) and plead not guilty."

    At this point you may want to present a written request for a trial by declaration (see PLEAD NOT GUILTY AND REQUEST TRIAL BY DECLARATION).
    "

    If I follow the directions as stated, will I retain my right to Traffic School even after being found guilty in the TBWD as well as Trial de Novo?

    One last thing: I spoke with a traffic lawyer today and I did not remember much of the details. But he told me that the ticket can be dismissed on a technicality; that is, a demure. The reason being is that at the bottom of my traffic ticket. It says, "Rev. 09-20-05 (Veh. Code, 40500(b), 40513(b), 40522, 40600; Pen Code 853.9." The traffic lawyer said that the ticket is outdated, or the system was based on Rev. 09-20-05. I do not exactly remember. He said that he can have the ticket dismissed for $200. I am still hesitating on his offer because I am still very poor and $200 is a big sum for me, but I also realize it is a lot better than paying $238.00 + $54.00 traffic school = $292.00 and having the moving violation on my record. I am hesitating because, I believe I have a really good Radar Speed Trap defense. The thing is, do I?

    Thank you for taking your time to read this ardous post. I try to be exact as possible without leaving any little detail out. If you need more information, please let me know. Any inputs is of high value.

  2. #2

    Default Re: CVC 22350 on Downhill (Pictures Provided)

    Quote Quoting qnguyen224
    View Post
    According to the officer, I was driving 55 in a 40 zone and he used Lidar @ 410 ft to measure my speed. Please clarify what "Lidar @ 410 ft" means.
    That means he used a Lidar (fancy term for Radar) and that he picked up your vehicle from a distance of 410 feet from where he was positioned.

    Quote Quoting qnguyen224
    View Post
    As it was my first time being pulled over by a police officer I did not know how to respond other than "I'm sorry officer, was I speeding?" The officer replied yes and stated that I was going 55 MPH in a 35 MPH zone. I tried to ask the officer if he could let me off with a warning as I am a full-time student and I do not have the money to pay for the traffic ticket as well as saying that it was an emergency because I had an exam I had to take that day.
    Since you said this was your first time being pulled over, you wouldn't have known this in advance. But never, EVER admit anything when you get pulled over. Telling the officer you were late for class gives him ammo to use in court against you. If it happens again, don't ask if you were speeding, don't admit to anything.

    Quote Quoting qnguyen224
    View Post
    According to the officer, due to it being my first time getting pulled over/receiving a ticket, the officer decided to cut me some slack and said I was driving 55 MPH in a 40 MPH zone instead, as well as set my appearance date to late January 2017 to give me time to gathered the money.
    Wow, that's an interesting way of cutting you slack. First he says you were going 55 in a 35 zone, then says he'll write it up as 55 in a 40? Uhhh... he could change the speed he said you were going, but he cannot change what the street is zoned at. I would go back and check the area that he listed on the ticket, and see what the posted limit is. If it's 35 and he wrote 40, well, lucky you. If it was 40 and he had written 35, that could be a different story.

    Quote Quoting qnguyen224
    View Post
    I want to know what my options are at this point. I was able to request two extensions which delayed my appearance date up until a few days after this post date. By the time of this post, it would have been 200 days since I received my ticket. This number will be even bigger by the time of my trial date if I choose to take this to court.
    Good call on postponing. The longer you postpone, the less chance of the officer appearing if you go to trial. But don't bet on that as your only hope of winning.

    Quote Quoting qnguyen224
    View Post
    My question is, do I have any chance of winning this ticket?
    There is always a chance. It may be slim, but there's a chance. The helpigotaticket.com resources are very helpful. If you do get a copy of the survey, as you mentioned, I'd love to see it. If you do a Trial by Written Declaration (TBWD) first, don't tip your hand too much. You could just write "I'm not guilty" and let it go at that. If you get into details about surveys and that kind of thing, that will reveal your defense to the prosecution, which may put you at a disadvantage. I made the mistake of doing an Informal Discovery Request (IDR) before my trial last year, which included requesting a copy of the survey (even though I had already gotten a copy of it myself). I never got a response to the request, but the fact that I sent it (another mistake was cc:'ing the request to the police department) told them I knew about surveys, so the officer was prepared in court with the survey. Even though the survey didn't justify the posted speed limit, the judge still ruled against me, and almost a year later, I lost my appeal on those (among other) grounds.

    Quote Quoting qnguyen224
    View Post
    I believe my best defense would by a Radar Speed Trap Defense. ... It appears that the location where the officer clocked me in at 55 MPH (The officer stated on my traffic ticket that the location of the violation took place on "SB Placentia / Swan Cir.) can be considered a speed trap location.
    That will depend on what the survey says. As I mentioned, I'd like to see it when you get it.

    Quote Quoting qnguyen224
    View Post
    Therefore, I believe that the Radar Speed Trap Defense is my best defense. My question to you guys is: Is the Radar Speed Trap Defense my best one? If not, are there another other defenses I can rely on?
    The speed trap defense will depend on what the survey says. Aside from that, make sure to look up VC 22350. That VC does not say you may not drive faster than the posted limit. Look up the "30 questions" on helpigotaticket.com. I would pare them down a bit, but you can use that when you question the officer. The idea is that you need to establish that your speed was not unsafe for the conditions at the time with regard to weather, visibility, and road conditions, and did not endanger persons or property. If you ask the proper questions, you should be able to establish that you were not in violation of VC 22350.

    Quote Quoting qnguyen224
    View Post
    Is there a good chance that because the ticket is so old, the officer has forgotten the details about it; thereby increasing my chance of winning?
    No. Officers write up a lot of tickets, and even if your trial date was closer, the officer probably wouldn't remember all the details. They routinely refer to their copy of the ticket and any notes they wrote at the time of citation during their testimony during trial. That's standard practice. Don't count on that to win your trial.

    Quote Quoting qnguyen224
    View Post
    One last thing: I spoke with a traffic lawyer today and I did not remember much of the details. But he told me that the ticket can be dismissed on a technicality; that is, a demure. The reason being is that at the bottom of my traffic ticket. It says, "Rev. 09-20-05 (Veh. Code, 40500(b), 40513(b), 40522, 40600; Pen Code 853.9." The traffic lawyer said that the ticket is outdated, or the system was based on Rev. 09-20-05. I do not exactly remember. He said that he can have the ticket dismissed for $200. I am still hesitating on his offer because I am still very poor and $200 is a big sum for me, but I also realize it is a lot better than paying $238.00 + $54.00 traffic school = $292.00 and having the moving violation on my record.
    Unlikely that you'd get the ticket dismissed on a technicality like that. An older form won't get you out of the ticket. Traffic laws haven't changed much in the last 30 years, except for some of the cell phone/distracted driving laws.

    Quote Quoting qnguyen224
    View Post
    I am hesitating because, I believe I have a really good Radar Speed Trap defense. The thing is, do I?
    That remains to be seen, pending the results of the survey.

    Best of luck to you!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: CVC 22350 on Downhill (Pictures Provided)

    Quote Quoting bnewall1
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    That means he used a Lidar (fancy term for Radar)
    This is a long post so I will respond a little at a time. First, Radar and Lidar are nowhere near the same. Radar stands for RAdio Detection And Ranging whereas Lidar stands for Light Detection and Ranging and they both obviously use different technology. Here is an article, Difference Between Radar and Lidar Explained, that explains the difference. This distinction is important when challenging the use of a SMD.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: CVC 22350 on Downhill (Pictures Provided)

    Quote Quoting bnewall1
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    That means he used a Lidar (fancy term for Radar)
    Without wanting to get too deep into the weeds, for those who don't want to look up the information elsewhere, radar SMDs use radar technology -- bounced sound waves and the doppler effect -- while LIDAR devices use lasers and bounced light. The devices may look similar and both give speed measurement, but the underlying technology is very different.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: CVC 22350 on Downhill (Pictures Provided)

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    Without wanting to get too deep into the weeds, for those who don't want to look up the information elsewhere, radar SMDs use radar technology -- bounced sound waves and the doppler effect -- while LIDAR devices use lasers and bounced light. The devices may look similar and both give speed measurement, but the underlying technology is very different.
    Brilliant analysis. I'm amazed at how you come up with these ingenious ideas.

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