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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    16,474

    Default Re: Child Visitation when Does Child Have a Say

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    In the case example that you remember, it is not clear that the court held the mother was in compliance with the court order when she withheld the kids from the grandparents. It may well have been that the court held that the mother violated the order but just declined to impose contempt sanctions and instead make it clear to her that the grandparents are, in fact, able to pick up the kids. The very situation I suggested before. That means that the mother could have been hit with contempt sanctions but was fortunate to avoid that. Then she did what I would have suggested she do in the first place: move to have the court impose limitations on the grandparents picking up the kids rather than simply refusing and potentially putting herself at risk for contempt. So far, I’m not seeing any court opinion that suggests Mom is not in violation of the order when refusing to let the grandparents pick up the kids unless the court order has some restriction on the grandparents picking them up.
    A person can be in violation of a court order without being held in contempt. A person is not in contempt of an order until a judge says that they are in contempt. I specifically said that I had not seen a judge actually hold a parent in contempt when they had a reasonable belief that the grandparents were exercising the other parent's court order, without the other parent being present. I never denied that a judge COULD hold a parent in contempt, my argument was whether or not a judge WOULD.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    38,867

    Default Re: Child Visitation when Does Child Have a Say

    Quote Quoting llworking
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    A person can be in violation of a court order without being held in contempt. A person is not in contempt of an order until a judge says that they are in contempt. I specifically said that I had not seen a judge actually hold a parent in contempt when they had a reasonable belief that the grandparents were exercising the other parent's court order, without the other parent being present. I never denied that a judge COULD hold a parent in contempt, my argument was whether or not a judge WOULD.
    Then your entire argument is not based on the law but what a judge may or may not do? What is important is what the law is. What a judge does or
    doesn't do varies with every judge.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
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    8,238

    Default Re: Child Visitation when Does Child Have a Say

    Quote Quoting llworking
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    I never denied that a judge COULD hold a parent in contempt, my argument was whether or not a judge WOULD.
    Ah, well then, that will vary by the case and the judge hearing, right? I’ve provided one instance in which the judge did hold the parent in contempt, and was upheld by the Ohio Court of Appeals. I can pretty much guarantee that it is not unique. As I said earlier, there is no guarantee a judge would hold the parent in contempt, but the fact that the parent did violate the order does make contempt a risk for the parent, just as with any other violation of the court orders. You made it sound, up until now, as though the parent would not violate the order, i.e. would be legally justified in refusing to let the grandparents take the kids such that the court could not impose contempt. That may not have been what you intended, but it is how your posts came across to me (and I think to others as well). So I welcome your clarification of your position.

    I wouldn't counsel any client to violate a court order, regardless of whether I thought the judge would actually hit the client with contempt on the first time the other parent takes it to court. Even if the judge decides to not impose contempt sanctions, that violation will stick in the judge’s mind and may come back to bite the client later. I do not see the violation here as morally superior than any other violation of the court’s orders (though perhaps you do). I would instead advise the client to bring her own motion to the court to address the grandparent issue. In the states I practice, at least, that would be less likely to put the client in a bad light than violating the order and then having to rely on the judge’s mercy to avoid contempt.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Somewhere near Canada
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    35,894

    Default Re: Child Visitation when Does Child Have a Say

    Quote Quoting Taxing Matters
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    Ah, well then, that will vary by the case and the judge hearing, right? I’ve provided one instance in which the judge did hold the parent in contempt, and was upheld by the Ohio Court of Appeals. I can pretty much guarantee that it is not unique. As I said earlier, there is no guarantee a judge would hold the parent in contempt, but the fact that the parent did violate the order does make contempt a risk for the parent, just as with any other violation of the court orders. You made it sound, up until now, as though the parent would not violate the order, i.e. would be legally justified in refusing to let the grandparents take the kids such that the court could not impose contempt. That may not have been what you intended, but it is how your posts came across to me (and I think to others as well). So I welcome your clarification of your position.

    I wouldn't counsel any client to violate a court order, regardless of whether I thought the judge would actually hit the client with contempt on the first time the other parent takes it to court. Even if the judge decides to not impose contempt sanctions, that violation will stick in the judge’s mind and may come back to bite the client later. I do not see the violation here as morally superior than any other violation of the court’s orders (though perhaps you do). I would instead advise the client to bring her own motion to the court to address the grandparent issue. In the states I practice, at least, that would be less likely to put the client in a bad light than violating the order and then having to rely on the judge’s mercy to avoid contempt.
    Sigh. I do wish we had a "like" button.

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